Who is my "brother" in Christ?

[OneLight]

What do these verses mean? Verses to consider about what will happen to those who die before He returns.

Philippians 1:21-24 (New King James Version)

For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (New King James Version)

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (New King James Version)

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

[eis]

What do these verses mean? Verses to consider about what will happen to those who die before He returns.

Philippians 1:21-24 (New King James Version)

For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (New King James Version)

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (New King James Version)

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

I personally believe that it means that Paul recognized the truth that the Lord lives and there is a home beyond this one for us. Knowing that, he looked forward to the "transition" from this life to the eternal one. He had the understanding that he would one day be with the Lord at the proper time which would be...after judgment in keeping with what he had told the Thessalonians. If I am remembering correctly, he made it very clear to them that the Lord had yet to return and that they should not be disturbed by those who said that the Lord had already come. Now, I haven't been there so all I can do is tell you what I understand. The judgment has not occurred. If the judgment has not occurred, then it would be incorrect to assume that one would be in heaven, if saved, after death. More likely the saved, and yes I believe I am despite some other thinking here, will find themselves in "Abraham's bosom" or "care" or Paradise as it has been called by the Lord who is at the right hand of God according to the Scripture.

[Floatingaxe]

All are sinners and come short of the glory of God. The age of acountibility is 20 years old.

Scripture, please!

For the first part of the statement, Romans 3:23 would fit the bill. I have no idea about the 20 year age of accuntability statement and where that could be found in scripture

Yes, I am looking for the 20 year accountability scripture.

[John3;16]

The Gospel or

[Scare Bear]

If you are discussing this with shiloh357 then you will have a hard time making any headway. He claims to use Scripture but the taint is a set of preconditions that fit his view. One is, you don't understand baptism. I gather from him, when Scripture speaks of water baptism that doesn't matter because it is only the baptism of the Holy Spirit that matters. Another is that he has now said that faith = belief and belief = belief + repentance.

Another thing is that shiloh357 says baptism doesn't clean anything, so if your mama washed the dishes and immersed them in the soapy water, there is no cleaning. In the strictest since he would be correct because mama would need to scrub and rinse said dishes to remit them from that toxic food waste left there. However, it isn't the baptismal waters in and of themselves that you and I believe actually save us, because there has to be something behind the baptism. Baptism, BTW, isn't a work that you do since you submit to baptism (someone else baptizes you). The grace (the blood of Jesus) of God cleanses us. I believe it is there that we finally come to the full fruition of grace, once we have died to self, been buried & raised having clothed ourselves with Christ. (Hey I forgot to say that prior to baptism we believe, repent of our sins and confess Him). You know THAT is calling on the Lord.

So who are you discussing this with?

With Shiloh357. The statement that was given was "No, it is simply Jesus being seen through you. But in another sense, you WANT Jesus to take over because frankly you are not good enough to live the Christian live under your own strength." Talking I believe about Jesus coming into you and basically taking control? I dunno how to answer this one.

[eis]

If you are discussing this with shiloh357 then you will have a hard time making any headway. He claims to use Scripture but the taint is a set of preconditions that fit his view. One is, you don't understand baptism. I gather from him, when Scripture speaks of water baptism that doesn't matter because it is only the baptism of the Holy Spirit that matters. Another is that he has now said that faith = belief and belief = belief + repentance.

Another thing is that shiloh357 says baptism doesn't clean anything, so if your mama washed the dishes and immersed them in the soapy water, there is no cleaning. In the strictest since he would be correct because mama would need to scrub and rinse said dishes to remit them from that toxic food waste left there. However, it isn't the baptismal waters in and of themselves that you and I believe actually save us, because there has to be something behind the baptism. Baptism, BTW, isn't a work that you do since you submit to baptism (someone else baptizes you). The grace (the blood of Jesus) of God cleanses us. I believe it is there that we finally come to the full fruition of grace, once we have died to self, been buried & raised having clothed ourselves with Christ. (Hey I forgot to say that prior to baptism we believe, repent of our sins and confess Him). You know THAT is calling on the Lord.

So who are you discussing this with?

With Shiloh357. The statement that was given was "No, it is simply Jesus being seen through you. But in another sense, you WANT Jesus to take over because frankly you are not good enough to live the Christian live under your own strength." Talking I believe about Jesus coming into you and basically taking control? I dunno how to answer this one.

I don't think that is purely Biblical. Christ lives in me, but I still sin. Therefor, it would be unlike Christ to sin. Paul discussed this very concept here:

Romans 7:13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

NASB

[Scare Bear]

Eph. 2: 8-10. We are saved not by works but unto good works, which we were created to perform.

Those verses do not indicate that. Let's break down verse 9. "not of works, lest anyone should boast." Lest anyone should boast... It is saying that we are not saved of boastful works. There are no works that we can do that we boast about them. James 2:24 goes on to say You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Those verses go hand in hand. And as it was mentioned, The bible was not written in verses, these were written as letters, therefore they all flow together when you understand the bigger picture.

Paul and James both draw on Abraham (Romans 4 and James 2) Paul shows that Abraham was justified (saved) by faith alone and that faith was credited to him as righteousness. James shows that Abraham's faith in God was later justified or validated by his willingness to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham was not obedient to God in order to get saved. Abraham was already justified before God and as such it was evidenced in His obedience.

In fact, Hebrews 11 is all about how the saints validated their faith through their works. Not one example is provided in that chapter of a person who was obeident in order to get saved. In each case, their obedience was an outworking of a faith that was already in existance.

But Abraham still had to do these things, it was his choice whether he went through with them or not. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Must believe that He is... well that's an action isnt it? If Abraham chose not to give up Isaac would he still have favor in God's sight? What about King Saul? He was chosen by God yet he *chose* not to obey God's commands. Faith alone does not save one but I do agree faith does push us to be obedient. But you still have not given me a verse that states we are obedient because we are saved.

No, they are not saved. Like I have said repeatedly, truth faith always produces corresopnding action. True Christians are people with a heart for the Lord. They may not be missionaries or preachers, but they live for God and have an active, living faith. If a person claims to be saved, but has nothing to show for it, they need to reexamine the authenticity of their profession of faith.

If they have nothing to show for it.... would you agree that a work would show that?

Here again, the unwarranted assumption you are operating under is that I am trying to say that obedience is not necssary. You really need to learn how to read what I am saying instead reacting to what you think I am saying.

Hebrews 5:8 is not saying that obedience to a set of prescribed works is necessary for salvation. If it is, then you are saving yourself under your own strength. Salvation is not a partnership between you and God. That defies the very concept of salvation. Those who are obedient are obedient BECAUSE they have been perfected. If you could obey Jesus sufficient enough to be saved, then you would not have need of further perfection. You would already be there.

If you could, by your own works, merit salvation, there would be nothing Jesus' death on the cross could do for you that you have not already secured on your own. If a man drowning in a river suddenly was able to find a means to keep from drowning, he would not need someone to jump in the water to save him. Likewise, if a sinner can do enough good works to merit salvation, he does not need the blood of Jesus.

In order to be saved, you have to believe and you have to have faith, that we can agree on. But that requires who? Does Jesus believe for you? No you'd say I was off my rocker. You have to believe so that requires effort on your part wouldn't it? So being saved isn't completely up to Jesus you have to make the decision to believe right?

God's commandments are always given to redeemed people; they are never given to sinners as a prescription for salvation.

But in order to become saved one has to be given a commandment.

Exactly!!!! That is why it is by faith. If you add anything else, you exclude anyone and everyone who does not have access to it. If God said you have to have purple tennis shoes to be saved, someone would not have access to purple tennis shoes. Faith is inclusive. Your view is restrictive only to people blessed to be near a baptismal area.

LOL, so if he did not have access to water through no fault of his own, then you could not logically state he was disobedient.

But what if the nearest water was a days's travel in that desert region???

Such a person getting saved on an airplane and the plane crashes before the person could find a baptismal.

You talk a lot about faith, would you doubt for one minute that if a person truly truly wanted to be baptized that God wouldn't allow them some way of being baptized? What if one of the spokes broke on the eunuch's chariot? If we have faith in God He will provide us a way to be baptized.

How do you know they were in the desert?

I'll have get more info for your plane question because I do not want to say something wrong here.

No, that is not what I said. What I said is that you have nothing to do with how you get saved. You have everything to do with salvation in terms of how you live it out.

But you have to believe before you can be saved don't you? You need faith before you can be saved don't you? And you need to continue to believe and have faith so in order to continue to walk that path it requires an action on your part right? Jesus can't continue to believe for you after your saved, you have to do that on your own.

[Guest shiloh357]

If you are discussing this with shiloh357 then you will have a hard time making any headway. He claims to use Scripture but the taint is a set of preconditions that fit his view. One is, you don't understand baptism. I gather from him, when Scripture speaks of water baptism that doesn't matter because it is only the baptism of the Holy Spirit that matters. Another is that he has now said that faith = belief and belief = belief + repentance.

Another thing is that shiloh357 says baptism doesn't clean anything, so if your mama washed the dishes and immersed them in the soapy water, there is no cleaning. In the strictest since he would be correct because mama would need to scrub and rinse said dishes to remit them from that toxic food waste left there. However, it isn't the baptismal waters in and of themselves that you and I believe actually save us, because there has to be something behind the baptism. Baptism, BTW, isn't a work that you do since you submit to baptism (someone else baptizes you). The grace (the blood of Jesus) of God cleanses us. I believe it is there that we finally come to the full fruition of grace, once we have died to self, been buried & raised having clothed ourselves with Christ. (Hey I forgot to say that prior to baptism we believe, repent of our sins and confess Him). You know THAT is calling on the Lord.

So who are you discussing this with?

With Shiloh357. The statement that was given was "No, it is simply Jesus being seen through you. But in another sense, you WANT Jesus to take over because frankly you are not good enough to live the Christian live under your own strength." Talking I believe about Jesus coming into you and basically taking control? I dunno how to answer this one.

I don't think that is purely Biblical. Christ lives in me, but I still sin. Therefor, it would be unlike Christ to sin. Paul discussed this very concept here:

Romans 7:13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

NASB

You still sin, but the fact is that the Christian life can only be lived by Jesus living through us. Paul's description above pertains to his condition before salvation. Paul is talking about the futility and the defeat of human effort. His striving and continued failure under the law is contrasted with Romans 8 which reflects his experience as a Christian. The weakness of the flesh under the law is contrasted with the sufficiency of Christ who fulfills the righteousness of the law in us.

That is why works cannot save you. You could keep a commandment perfectly, but unlike Jesus, you cannot fulfill the righteousness of it. Only Jesus can do that. The only way to fulfill the righteousness of the law is to possess that righteousness without the stain of sin into which you were born.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

Eph. 2: 8-10. We are saved not by works but unto good works, which we were created to perform.

Those verses do not indicate that. Let's break down verse 9. "not of works, lest anyone should boast." Lest anyone should boast... It is saying that we are not saved of boastful works.

Boastful works??? Now you are trying to change the working of the passage. Paul is not making a distinction between works and "boastful works." He is saying that it is by grace through faith so that no one can take the credit, so that no one can claim that they, by their own effort gained salvation.

There are no works that we can do that we boast about them. James 2:24 goes on to say You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

James is not talking about be justified before God. He is referring to our works validating our testimony in the sight of men. You have completely butchered the text.

QUOTE

Paul and James both draw on Abraham (Romans 4 and James 2) Paul shows that Abraham was justified (saved) by faith alone and that faith was credited to him as righteousness. James shows that Abraham's faith in God was later justified or validated by his willingness to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham was not obedient to God in order to get saved. Abraham was already justified before God and as such it was evidenced in His obedience.

In fact, Hebrews 11 is all about how the saints validated their faith through their works. Not one example is provided in that chapter of a person who was obeident in order to get saved. In each case, their obedience was an outworking of a faith that was already in existance.

But Abraham still had to do these things, it was his choice whether he went through with them or not.

But they were done AFTER he was justified before God. He did not do them to be justified before God.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Must believe that He is... well that's an action isnt it?

But is not a "work." A work produces something. Works do not produce faith. Faith produces works.

If Abraham chose not to give up Isaac would he still have favor in God's sight?

No, and that makes my point. Abraham's faith is evident in the fact that he chose to be obedient. The obedience stemmed from faith that God credited to him as righeousness.

What about King Saul? He was chosen by God yet he *chose* not to obey God's commands. Faith alone does not save one but I do agree faith does push us to be obedient. But you still have not given me a verse that states we are obedient because we are saved.

I have given you Hebrews 11. Everyone of those OT saints were peoplpe of faith, and their faith was evidenced in what they did. Abraham's faith was proven in what he did. Abraham was saved(justifed) by faith apart from works.

To be justified by God is to be declared righteous. That is salvation.

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. (And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, Rom. 4:1-5)

Abraham is shown as being saved by faith apart from works.

QUOTE

No, they are not saved. Like I have said repeatedly, truth faith always produces corresopnding action. True Christians are people with a heart for the Lord. They may not be missionaries or preachers, but they live for God and have an active, living faith. If a person claims to be saved, but has nothing to show for it, they need to reexamine the authenticity of their profession of faith.

If they have nothing to show for it.... would you agree that a work would show that?

A person who is truly saved will have a life of corresponding deeds. Those who profess Chrsit but continue to live in sin will show by their works that they were never saved.

QUOTE

Here again, the unwarranted assumption you are operating under is that I am trying to say that obedience is not necssary. You really need to learn how to read what I am saying instead reacting to what you think I am saying.

Hebrews 5:8 is not saying that obedience to a set of prescribed works is necessary for salvation. If it is, then you are saving yourself under your own strength. Salvation is not a partnership between you and God. That defies the very concept of salvation. Those who are obedient are obedient BECAUSE they have been perfected. If you could obey Jesus sufficient enough to be saved, then you would not have need of further perfection. You would already be there.

If you could, by your own works, merit salvation, there would be nothing Jesus' death on the cross could do for you that you have not already secured on your own. If a man drowning in a river suddenly was able to find a means to keep from drowning, he would not need someone to jump in the water to save him. Likewise, if a sinner can do enough good works to merit salvation, he does not need the blood of Jesus.

[Guest shiloh357]

In order to be saved, you have to believe and you have to have faith, that we can agree on. But that requires who? Does Jesus believe for you? No you'd say I was off my rocker. You have to believe so that requires effort on your part wouldn't it? So being saved isn't completely up to Jesus you have to make the decision to believe right?

You have to make the decision to receive the gift. No one said that salvation is completely up to Jesus. You are missing the point. The point is that your works, nothing you do contributes to redemption. Salvation is not you and God working together. You have nothing to add to the work of redemption. You have nothing to contribute to the plan of salvation.

QUOTE

God's commandments are always given to redeemed people; they are never given to sinners as a prescription for salvation.

But in order to become saved one has to be given a commandment.

You are given the commandment to believe. If you choose to reject the gift and refuse to believe, you will not be saved.

QUOTE

Exactly!!!! That is why it is by faith. If you add anything else, you exclude anyone and everyone who does not have access to it. If God said you have to have purple tennis shoes to be saved, someone would not have access to purple tennis shoes. Faith is inclusive. Your view is restrictive only to people blessed to be near a baptismal area.

LOL, so if he did not have access to water through no fault of his own, then you could not logically state he was disobedient.

But what if the nearest water was a days's travel in that desert region???

Such a person getting saved on an airplane and the plane crashes before the person could find a baptismal.

You talk a lot about faith, would you doubt for one minute that if a person truly truly wanted to be baptized that God wouldn't allow them some way of being baptized?

Faith is one thing. You are entering into the realm of presumption. You are presuming that no one will get saved in an area or at a time that baptism is not available.

What if one of the spokes broke on the eunuch's chariot? If we have faith in God He will provide us a way to be baptized.

Yes, but it is presumption to assume that God will not save anyone where they don't have water nearby.

How do you know they were in the desert

Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Rise and go toward the south [fn] to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is a desert place. (Acts 8:26)

QUOTE

No, that is not what I said. What I said is that you have nothing to do with how you get saved. You have everything to do with salvation in terms of how you live it out.

But you have to believe before you can be saved don't you? You need faith before you can be saved don't you? And you need to continue to believe and have faith so in order to continue to walk that path it requires an action on your part right? Jesus can't continue to believe for you after your saved, you have to do that on your own.

Yes, but that is not a matter of you contributing to salvation. You are not performing a work necessary for salvation. Faith is simply the vehicle through salvation is received.

Salvation has already been accomplished. Salvation is not somethnig you can create out of your own effort. Salvation is not a prize or a reward you earn. Salvation is a person. Jesus is salvation. You cannot earn Salvation. To receive salvation is receive Jesus.