Who is my "brother" in Christ?

[Guest shiloh357]

Grace is a gift, the gift of forgiveness.

No that is not what grace is.

One final response:

Looking back, grace(charity or favor) is a gift that results in forgiveness.

But that is not what you said originally. Grace results in forgiveness, yes. It is not the gift of forgiveness, though. Grace is lovingkindness.

[Scare Bear]

Yes, but you don't contribute anything to plan of salvation. You do not play a part in engineering redemption.

So then by your own words, an atheist will get to heaven. When you try to tell someone about Jesus and then tell them all they need to do is believe to be saved then things could get a bit hairy. The person might think, well all I gotta do is believe and I'll be fine, I can continue to smoke and drink and cuss and be alright. See that's the message you are presenting, just kick up your heels and let God do all the work but the only problem with that is you still have a part to play in your salvation. You seem to dance around that and put responsibility off. Jesus said (pardon for paraphrasing)"those who say to me Lord Lord... have we not prophesied in thy name etc. depart from me ye workers of iniquity" Just by His words we do have a part in our salvation. A PART, I'm not saying it's all up to us but we do have a say so if we want a crown of life.

1 cor. 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.... 13 each one

[Floatingaxe]

That's not what he is saying at all Scare Bear. He never condoned sinning in his statements. He is just trying to show that Salvation is a gift from God that can only be attained by Faith alone. If the church taught the consequence of sin more and discipled new believers, then none of us would be having this debate today. Even Hebrews talks about this very thing. "Should we go on sinning? Of course not!" Remember?

But unfortunately, we are at war not only with the flesh and the enemy is the father of lies and ruler of the earth.

It seems that you misconstrue what brother Shiloh is saying, You are taking his words and completely twisting them around. Instead of listening to what he is saying and actually processing it, you are only thinking of your opinion and re-posting the same old song and dance.

Do you honestly believe we are here to tell people that living according to the flesh is okay because you are eternally secure?

Please sister, try to understand where he is coming from.

It's OSAS vs. Non-OSAS, one of you is wrong and that's just the way of it. One places emphasis on grace and faith without condoning living according to the flesh, only to express God's mercy and love and the other places emphasis on being obedient.

Do you see where the differences lie?

There is evidence of a renewed heart in the fruit that matures in a life that Jesus lives in!

[Guest]

.... Looking back, grace(charity or favor) is a gift that results in forgiveness....

Are you washed in the blood,

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 1:5

In the soul-cleansing blood of the Lamb?

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 Peter 1:18-19

Are your garments spotless? Are they white as snow?

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isaiah 1:18

Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Colossians 1:20-23

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

Yes, but you don't contribute anything to plan of salvation. You do not play a part in engineering redemption.

So then by your own words, an atheist will get to heaven.

Where did you get that from what I said???? You are really trying hard to twist my responses.

When you try to tell someone about Jesus and then tell them all they need to do is believe to be saved then things could get a bit hairy. The person might think, well all I gotta do is believe and I'll be fine, I can continue to smoke and drink and cuss and be alright. See that's the message you are presenting, just kick up your heels and let God do all the work but the only problem with that is you still have a part to play in your salvation.

Yeah, but that is not all I tell anyone. I draw a distinction between what is required to GET saved and the obedience that naturally flows from authentic saving faith.

You seem to dance around that and put responsibility off.

And you seem to lack basic reading skills. I have never said that we can live without responsibility or sin as much as we want and I have taken great pains to make that point, and you continue to ignore it. I have repeatedly stated that obedience is required and that it will evidenced in the lives of true believers.

Jesus said (pardon for paraphrasing)"those who say to me Lord Lord... have we not prophesied in thy name etc. depart from me ye workers of iniquity" Just by His words we do have a part in our salvation. A PART, I'm not saying it's all up to us but we do have a say so if we want a crown of life.

Yes but Jesus in Matthew 7 where you got that from is referencing false prophets, not the average Christian. He is talking about those who posit themselves as God's spokesmen who have led the church astray and have used mighty works lying signs and wonders to fool the masses into thinking they were God's servants.

QUOTE

No, it is not. Faith is simply the means by which salvation is procured. You contribute nothing to bring salvation into existence.

So again, atheists are saved? See how your argument can be misconstrued by those who don't understand? They'll think all they have to do is believe and that's it.

How would an atheist be saved seing that an atheist doesn't even believe in the first place. I don't think people misunderstand anything. Rather, it appears that you are hell bent on twisting my statements and assign values to them that they do not possess due to the fact that you do not possess the basic honesty and integrity to correctly frame my position in your responses. You put the lie in my mouth and then argue against it and it is getting really old.

That's kind of warped thinking. If nothing you do is good and pleasing to God then why did He tell the Israelites to offer burnt offerings... and accept them (the ones that were deemed good)?

Yet God said He takes no pleasure in burnt offerings. (Is. 1:11)

That was something they were told to do... God even blessed those who did it right. So which is it? Nothing absolutely nothing you can do is pleasing to God?

The sacrifices were not for God's benefit. Those offerings never saved anyone. Paul said, "by the works of the law is no man justified in His sight. The sacrifices were works of the law that did not bring salvation to anyone. The sacrifices were an act of faith, not a means of attaining salvation.

If you could please God in your own effort you would not need Jesus. Your best efforts are worthless, filthy rags before God (Is. 64:6)

If that be the case then no one would get to heaven.

That is why Jesus came. You will NEVER get to heaven on the basis of your works. Your works are worthless and you are hopeless and helpless utterly wretched before a holy God. Your best efforts on your best day will avail you nothing.

Or do you do things that are well pleasing before the Lord, not to boast before men but to do so because you love the Lord and want a crown of righteousness?

The problem is that what charactizes a saved person. Works you do to gain God's favor or to gain salvation are done as a unregenerate sinner. God is not interested in people performing well enough for Him. They cannot possibly do that. Your works only take on value when they are done in grateful obedience for the salvation you have received.

Working to get saved is futile and hopeless and will only send you to hell.

I understand that, but it is also a good illustration on the fact that YOU have to get into the boat. If you want to be saved YOU have to climb aboard.

Which is born of faith in the person saving. To make the decision to accept the offer of salvation is not a "work" it is the vehicle by which you receive the salvation offered. It is the person with the boat who is doing the "saving" part. They are saving YOU. If they did not offer it, all of your efforts to save yourself from drowning would be ineffective. You could work as hard as possible, but if the person on the boat does not offer to save you, you will never be saved no matter how hard you try.

[Guest shiloh357]

Revelation: And they were judged, each one according to his works.

That applies only to sinners who reject Christ to determine the severity of their punishment.

2 Corinthians: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Refers to Christians who have already been saved and are being judged to determine the level of their reward. The throne in Revelation is NOT the Judgment Seat of Christ. These two different thrones and only Christians are recorded as appearing before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

[Scare Bear]

Where did you get that from what I said???? You are really trying hard to twist my responses.

Yeah, but that is not all I tell anyone. I draw a distinction between what is required to GET saved and the obedience that naturally flows from authentic saving faith.

I'm not trying really hard, you're making it really easy for someone to twist it if they don't have a hard grasp on the idea. I'm merely pointing out how flawed the thinking is. You say we have no part in our salvation (that would indicate everyone will be saved regardless). But then you say one has to believe, well it's up to the person whether to believe or not so salvation isn't completely up to the Lord, you have to make the decision and if you don't then you're not saved. That requires an action on your part.

But in order to "get" saved an action must take place. Believe is a verb, it's something you do.

And you seem to lack basic reading skills. I have never said that we can live without responsibility or sin as much as we want and I have taken great pains to make that point, and you continue to ignore it. I have repeatedly stated that obedience is required and that it will evidenced in the lives of true believers.

The argument you are presenting makes it really easy for someone to see that. "Well, if I have nothing to do with my salvation then I can do whatever I want." Now you're saying that obedience is required... that's an action on your part isn't it? Obeying is a verb as well... an action one must take.

Yes but Jesus in Matthew 7 where you got that from is referencing false prophets, not the average Christian. He is talking about those who posit themselves as God's spokesmen who have led the church astray and have used mighty works lying signs and wonders to fool the masses into thinking they were God's servants.

False prophets, that could be the "average Christian" could it not? A person can say they are a Christian but it doesn't mean they are. There will be people in the day who claim they are but will not get a crown of life. I don't doubt some of the heaviest believers, (those who go to church etc.) will be told to depart. So yes, for the true Christians, that message will have no effect, but to those who claim to wear the name Christian won't have such a nice fate.

How would an atheist be saved seeing that an atheist doesn't even believe in the first place. I don't think people misunderstand anything. Rather, it appears that you are hell bent on twisting my statements and assign values to them that they do not possess due to the fact that you do not possess the basic honesty and integrity to correctly frame my position in your responses. You put the lie in my mouth and then argue against it and it is getting really old.

Again see the above statements, I'm not putting words in your mouth, you're doing that on your own. I'm merely pointing out that someone who has no clue could see that they don't have to do anything and that seems to be what you have been implying, that our faith AND our works won't save us, just our faith which has been pointed out that both need to go hand in hand.

Yet God said He takes no pleasure in burnt offerings. (Is. 1:11)

The sacrifices were not for God's benefit. Those offerings never saved anyone. Paul said, "by the works of the law is no man justified in His sight. The sacrifices were works of the law that did not bring salvation to anyone. The sacrifices were an act of faith, not a means of attaining salvation.

If you could please God in your own effort you would not need Jesus. Your best efforts are worthless, filthy rags before God (Is. 64:6)

He still accepted them though.

Then why did God tell them to do these things? Why did the Israelites gets punished for disobeying God? Further more those who did what they were told who died under the Old Law was taken care of by Jesus' blood. Remember, their sins were rolled forward each year. Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Yes I understand that verse, through faith, we must do our part. Our works alone will not save us but our faith and our works.

That is why Jesus came. You will NEVER get to heaven on the basis of your works. Your works are worthless and you are hopeless and helpless utterly wretched before a holy God. Your best efforts on your best day will avail you nothing.

Exactly, which is why you need faith as well. But it begs the question, why were the Israelites told to obey the laws given to them? Why were they punished when they didn't follow those laws?

The problem is that what charactizes a saved person. Works you do to gain God's favor or to gain salvation are done as a unregenerate sinner. God is not interested in people performing well enough for Him. They cannot possibly do that. Your works only take on value when they are done in grateful obedience for the salvation you have received.

Working to get saved is futile and hopeless and will only send you to hell.

If you weren't obedient to God's word you wouldn't be saved, so I don't know where you're getting this you're already saved then you are obedient. One is told to believe... you have to obey that command before you can be saved right? Your not saved then you believe right? So why do you say that obedience comes after one is saved, it should come before that right?

Which is born of faith in the person saving. To make the decision to accept the offer of salvation is not a "work" it is the vehicle by which you receive the salvation offered. It is the person with the boat who is doing the "saving" part. They are saving YOU. If they did not offer it, all of your efforts to save yourself from drowning would be ineffective. You could work as hard as possible, but if the person on the boat does not offer to save you, you will never be saved no matter how hard you try.

A work would be considered a verb... something you do, it can either be physical or mental. Believing is a verb as well as running and jumping. So believing is a "work."

Exactly, but you still have to want to be saved. YOU have a part in that.

That applies only to sinners who reject Christ to determine the severity of their punishment.

Refers to Christians who have already been saved and are being judged to determine the level of their reward. The throne in Revelation is NOT the Judgment Seat of Christ. These two different thrones and only Christians are recorded as appearing before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

There's different levels of punishment? I thought there was only one, eternal punishment in a fiery place with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There's two different thrones? I thought there was only one? I mean I know there's symbolism in the book and not every throne refers to Christ's judgment seat but I didn't know Christ had two seats?

In Revelation that verse is not talking about those who are saved, it is talking about the day of judgment ALL according to their works. If He meant Christians only I'm sure the distinction would have been made. But I have a feeling if I got into the symbols etc. this would get us into the whole Tribulation/Rapture thing and that needs to be discussed in a totally separate thread.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Scare Bear

[Scare Bear]

That's not what he is saying at all Scare Bear. He never condoned sinning in his statements. He is just trying to show that Salvation is a gift from God that can only be attained by Faith alone. If the church taught the consequence of sin more and discipled new believers, then none of us would be having this debate today. Even Hebrews talks about this very thing. "Should we go on sinning? Of course not!" Remember?

But unfortunately, we are at war not only with the flesh and the enemy is the father of lies and ruler of the earth.

It seems that you misconstrue what brother Shiloh is saying, You are taking his words and completely twisting them around. Instead of listening to what he is saying and actually processing it, you are only thinking of your opinion and re-posting the same old song and dance.

Do you honestly believe we are here to tell people that living according to the flesh is okay because you are eternally secure?

Please sister, try to understand where he is coming from.

It's OSAS vs. Non-OSAS, one of you is wrong and that's just the way of it. One places emphasis on grace and faith without condoning living according to the flesh, only to express God's mercy and love and the other places emphasis on being obedient.

Do you see where the differences lie?

I know where he's coming from, I do. I'm just showing him how his thoughts can be misunderstood by someone who may not know anything about the Bible. If we are saved by faith only then everything the Israelites ever did, whatever we do has nothing to do with our salvation then we might as well throw up our hands and live as we want, as long as we believe and have faith. God told the Israelites to obey His commands and they would be rewarded. Look at the wall of Jericho! Look at all the enemies they defeated when they did what God told them to do! They were saved in those respects by having faith and obeying God. Noah was not saved first, he was found favorable in the Lord's eyes so He commanded Noah to build an ark and he and his household were saved by obeying, not saved simply by believing. There is a part you play in your salvation, you can either accept it or reject it you can do as God commands or not. But what Shiloh is presenting could be seen as you're saved only because you believe in Christ and that's not at all what the Bible presents us with. You can look for yourself if you like, look at all the times someone was saved (whether it be spiritually or physically) they were told they must DO something. The leper told to go dip in the Jordan 7 times, Joshua and the Israelites told to march around Jericho, I mean the Bible is full of examples of people told to do something to be saved (along with God's help!) That's what I'm trying to get people to see. No it's not works only, no it's not faith only, it's not God's grace only, it's all of those things combined which makes a person saved.

[Floatingaxe]

I could be a sinner, and hear the gospel for the first time, and receive it with new faith and receive Jesus Christ with joy and gladness and then drop dead, not having had a chance for a renewal of the mind, or sanctification or fruit of any kind to be developed, but guess what? I would have a home in heaven, not one deed done for Christ.

It is faith that would have saved me. Faith alone. If I lived, I would have walked in my faith and my deeds would have revealed Who I belonged to---but they wouldn't have saved me.

[Openly Curious]

Amos 3:3--Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

This one verse alone says, so much within itself. In looking at this verse of scripture I think it covers Who is my "brother" in Christ?

Have to ask just to see --Is it even possible for two people to walk together unless they first agree on where they want to go? Amos 3:3---tells us.... No, How Should They?

Where there is no friendship there can be no fellowship. In the book of James ch 4 it speaks about having no fellowship with the world, as believers we no longer are a friend to the world.

There is a lot of differences between Christians and Mormons and a question can be asked from these differences being.

Can Christians and Mormons stand together?

2 Corinthians 6:14-15....instructs us....Do not be unequally yoked....

You can't have a brother in the Lord if you have no fellowship having disagreements with one another as Amos 3:3 says, Can two walk together, except they be agreed? answer being, No, How should they?

IMO a brother in Christ is one who walks in fellowship with you as a friend who fellowships with you on things you both have in common with one another. Just a really good friendship without having strife.

For Jesus is our elder brother who sticketh closer than a brother.