Sin, once repented, always forgiven?

[dgolvach]

I won't deny that sins have consequences. I believe you can really mess up your life, peace, joy, marriage, health and on and on.However, the way I understand the Bible is that the consequence is NOT loss of salvation. It's either grace or works. It can't be both even though grace can produce some mighty good works. Remember that the News Is Good!!!!!! If Grace alone can't save a wretch like me, is it really so amazing? I don't want justice! Give me mercy!!!! I hear some go on and on about they deserve better. I deserve HELL this minute and thats the truth. I think this issue gets confused because we are taught to achieve and earn our place(in this world) from cradle to grave. Im not saying that is a bad thing until you apply it to eternal salvation. We give thumbs up to each other based on achievement but WE are not God. I thank God that he dosen't show me everything all at once about myself that dose not meet his standard. I would be devastated!!!!!

Dan.........

[Adstar]

I like the Spirit of your posts Dan :hug:

All Praise The Ancient of Days

[Orr v'emet]

Maybe I am beginning to see the light with this OSAS thing. I feel both sides have valid arguments but the thing that sticks out to me is the huge danger of complacency in believing OSAS. So many feel that they can get saved and then live their lives the way they want. Some say that they will just have less crowns in heaven to lay at Jesus' feet. I think it's sad really. I would say that there is a good 80% of the active church members at my church who live lukewarm apathetic christian lives. They feel eternity is secure for them so they live like the world during the week and then act holy on Sundays. That is the real danger folks. These people are missing a Spirit-filled, on fire for God life that they could have because they don't see the need to "work out" their salvation.

[Guest Called]

Maybe I am beginning to see the light with this OSAS thing. I feel both sides have valid arguments but the thing that sticks out to me is the huge danger of complacency in believing OSAS. So many feel that they can get saved and then live their lives the way they want. Some say that they will just have less crowns in heaven to lay at Jesus' feet. I think it's sad really. I would say that there is a good 80% of the active church members at my church who live lukewarm apathetic christian lives. They feel eternity is secure for them so they live like the world during the week and then act holy on Sundays. That is the real danger folks. These people are missing a Spirit-filled, on fire for God life that they could have because they don't see the need to "work out" their salvation.

:hug:

[Kabowd]

I understand your concern, but does that mean we teach them false doctrine in order to insure they stay "on fire" for God? What good is zealousness and fervency in spirit .. if it's propelled by the belief that one will lose their salvation if they're not? Where is the security in that? Where is the peace?

I realize there is an apathetic spirit to many "believers" in the church today. But believing you can lose your salvation doesn't necessarily produce a well-balanced believer either. Very often they are driven by a works/performance-based faith ... which will often go back to a certain level of fear. God wants us to be driven by LOVE for Him and obey Him out of love. He wants us to be compelled to live a holy life out of a heart of gratitude for what He has done. He doesn't want us obeying Him out of fear.

I think the key is balance. What I'm hearing from those who "once beleived OSAS" is that they are concerned about apathy due to the security one feels in Christ. While I understand this, it doesn't mean we throw out the Scriptures that clearly point to the security of salvation in order to insure ppl do not become apathetic. My opinion is that we need to be true to God's Word, teach ppl that their salvation is secure..but be more diligent about teaching godly obedience, sacrifice and passion to do God's Will. We don't have to tell ppl their salvation is dependent on it in order to accomplish this. If ppl are taught that their fellowship with God is hindered when they live in unrepentant sin, and taught the truths about God's discipline when we stray ..I think this will produce a much more balanced believer.

From the testimonies I've heard in this topic it seems that those who once embraced the OSAS had bad experiences, or observed believers (or perhaps themselves) becoming lazy in their faith. But instead of seeing the heart of the issue (that the believers need taught the Word correctly), they've determined that it was all because those ppl felt "too secure" in their salvation. I guess I'm just concerned because I'm really not hearing a lot of Scriptural support for the other belief. It's mostly been experiences and concerns. I'm not meaning to come off harsh or demanding (thought I tend to be kinda stubborn ) , but I'm just not going to budge in my belief until I see strong biblical evidence that I am wrong.

I know a few have said they'd rather bow out of the conversation because of the "negative tone", but honestly... that is not very considerate to tell me I'm wrong, that I'm believing something false, then just leave me hanging. Not to mention all the time and effort I've put into studying this and discussing it. Not to be rude, but it seems that some have very little grace or patience to offer me. But frankly, I've run into this every time I've ever tried to get someone to explain it.

So, rather than just continue to tell me I'm wrong ..I'd be really thrilled if someone could tackle the specific Scriptures and questions that myself and Super Jew have posted thus far. Thank you.

Edited August 11, 2004 by Tess

[Guest Called]

Maybe I am beginning to see the light with this OSAS thing. I feel both sides have valid arguments but the thing that sticks out to me is the huge danger of complacency in believing OSAS. So many feel that they can get saved and then live their lives the way they want. Some say that they will just have less crowns in heaven to lay at Jesus' feet. I think it's sad really. I would say that there is a good 80% of the active church members at my church who live lukewarm apathetic christian lives. They feel eternity is secure for them so they live like the world during the week and then act holy on Sundays. That is the real danger folks. These people are missing a Spirit-filled, on fire for God life that they could have because they don't see the need to "work out" their salvation.

Use discernment about this Kris...that is all I will say....

[Kabowd]

*bangs head against wall*

[dwinkjr]

I understand your concern, but does that mean we teach them false doctrine in order to insure they stay "on fire" for God? What good is zealousness and fervency in spirit .. if it's propelled by the belief that one will lose their salvation if they're not? Where is the security in that? Where is the peace?

I realize there is an apathetic spirit to many "believers" in the church today. But believing you can lose your salvation doesn't necessarily produce a well-balanced believer either. Very often they are driven by a works/performance-based faith ... which will often go back to a certain level of fear. God wants us to be driven by LOVE for Him and obey Him out of love. He wants us to be compelled to live a holy life out of a heart of gratitude for what He has done. He doesn't want us obeying Him out of fear.

I think the key is balance. What I'm hearing from those who "once beleived OSAS" is that they are concerned about apathy due to the security one feels in Christ. While I understand this, it doesn't mean we throw out the Scriptures that clearly point to the security of salvation in order to insure ppl do not become apathetic. My opinion is that we need to be true to God's Word, teach ppl that their salvation is secure..but be more diligent about teaching godly obedience, sacrifice and passion to do God's Will. We don't have to tell ppl their salvation is dependent on it in order to accomplish this. If ppl are taught that their fellowship with God is hindered when they live in unrepentant sin, and taught the truths about God's discipline when we stray ..I think this will produce a much more balanced believer.

From the testimonies I've heard in this topic it seems that those who once embraced the OSAS had bad experiences, or observed believers (or perhaps themselves) becoming lazy in their faith. But instead of seeing the heart of the issue (that the believers need taught the Word correctly), they've determined that it was all because those ppl felt "too secure" in their salvation. I guess I'm just concerned because I'm really not hearing a lot of Scriptural support for the other belief. It's mostly been experiences and concerns. I'm not meaning to come off harsh or demanding (thought I tend to be kinda stubborn ) , but I'm just not going to budge in my belief until I see strong biblical evidence that I am wrong.

I know a few have said they'd rather bow out of the conversation because of the "negative tone", but honestly... that is not very considerate to tell me I'm wrong, that I'm believing something false, then just leave me hanging. Not to mention all the time and effort I've put into studying this and discussing it. Not to be rude, but it seems that some have very little grace or patience to offer me. But frankly, I've run into this every time I've ever tried to get someone to explain it.

So, rather than just continue to tell me I'm wrong ..I'd be really thrilled if someone could tackle the specific Scriptures and questions that myself and Super Jew have posted thus far. Thank you.

Tess,

I won't tell you your Wrong... Actually i'll tell you your 100% right

God Bless,

Dave

[dwinkjr]

*bangs head against wall*

Maybe this will help

God Bless,

Dave

[Kabowd]

I won't tell you your Wrong... Actually i'll tell you your 100% right

I appreciate the encouragement, Mr. Dave. I really do. Actually, I'm not even looking for ppl to just agree with me and tell me I'm right (I hope I'm not coming off that way). However, if someone tells me I'm wrong..I do expect to be shown how. Maybe it's the fact I've grown up with a lawyer..lol.