No sea

[enoob57]

It's all connected Shiloh. Forcing 'no sea' to be physical-literal implies that the 'River of life' MUST be symbolic.

So interpreting it the way you do has implications for the interpretation of other scriptures [as does any position, I guess].

That would not be a fair statement. The sea symbolic or non symbolic nature of the sea has no direct impact on whether or not the river is symbolic or non symbolic.

Here is my understanding...

The greek word there for sea refers to any size body of water. How can there be a complete total absence of any physical-literal body of water, and yet the presence of a physical-literal river [the River of Life]? It doesn't make logical sense.

Candice,

We know that God says we can't even use our minds to conceive of the things of Heaven and whats in store for those who love Him!

Also we know that God is unbounded and nothing is impossible for Him to do!

Taking these two facts alone tells us that it is probably going to be very different than how He has first created in our beginning! This is hinted at by the see through gold that paves the paths of our feet! This I believe is the wonder of it all... Love Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

It's all connected Shiloh. Forcing 'no sea' to be physical-literal implies that the 'River of life' MUST be symbolic.

Where did I say "no sea" is physical-literal? I did not offer that. My position is that we will know what it all means when God illuminates us. When God reveals it, there is no longer any guess work needed.

OK Shiloh - so what do you see as the significance of there being no sea on the new earth?

That's my point; I don't see that any signifigance, at least from a theological standpoint, is given. It is simply presented as fact. I guess that means there won't be rivers or other tributaries as there would be nothing for them them flow into.

I understood you to be talking physical-literal above. If I understood wrong, it was done innocently and I apologise.

No need to apologize. You didn't offend me. I was only speculating of what would be true if it were literal. I did not offer that as a definitive answer. I should have been more clear.

[Hawkins]

Mr. Hawkins how long have you believed in Christ?

Who cares. What's that to do with anything, anyway.

[lekh l'kha]

What Lekh provided may apply to the passages described, but that does not mean that we are free to take an analogy in place and plug it in to other parts of the Bible...

... There are rules of literary analysis and the Bible is a piece of literature that obeys the rules of literature.

It's also true that God established the symbolism that is found in the Bible, and the Revelation is full of symbolism - symbolism which remains 100% consistent with the symbolism found in the rest of the Bible - because that's one of those marvels about the Word of God - it always remains 100% consistent with the symbolism originally established, for example, Israel was always symbolized in one of three ways: a vine, a fig tree and/or an olive tree.

Sometimes only one symbol is used in a verse in reference to Israel. Sometimes two symbols are used in the same verse in reference to Israel, and sometimes all three are mentioned in one and the same prophetic passage:

"Though the fig tree shall not blossom, and fruit is not on the vines; the labor of the olive fails, and the fields yield no food. The flock is cut off from the fold, and no herd is in the stalls; yet I will rejoice in Jehovah, I will joy in the God of my salvation." (Hab 3:17-18)

"The trees went forth to anoint a king over them. And they said to the olive tree, Reign over us. But the olive tree said to them, Should I leave my fatness with which they honor God and man by me, and go to be promoted over the trees?

And the trees said to the fig tree, You come and reign over us. But the fig tree said to them, Should I forsake my sweetness and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees?

Then the trees said to the vine, You come and reign over us. And the vine said to them, Should I leave my wine, which cheers God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?

Then all the trees said to the bramble-bush, You come and reign over us. And the bramble-bush said to the trees, If you truly anoint me king over you, come put your trust in my shadow. And if not, let fire come out of the bramble and burn up the cedars of Lebanon." (Jdg 9:8-15)

The lamb which Abraham sacrificed in place of Isaac was caught in a bramble-bush, and it is a bramble-bush which provided the thorns for the crown on the head of the Lamb of God.

This passage in Judges was prophetic of Israel, and you will find that the fig tree, Olive tree and Vine are used over and over again in scripture as symbols for Israel.

Whatever the Revelation says, whenever it uses symbolism, the symbolism the Revelation uses will be 100% consistent with the symbolism in the Old Testament.

Like you say, this doesn't mean that every time the Revelation mentions "sea" or "earth" that it's necessarily symbolizing the Gentile nations on one hand and/or Israel/the elect on the other hand, and nobody really knows for sure where the symbolism ends and the literal meaning begins. But you can't pretend that the Revelation isn't packed with symbolism imported from the Old Testament.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jun 29 2010, 02:52 AM)

What Lekh provided may apply to the passages described, but that does not mean that we are free to take an analogy in place and plug it in to other parts of the Bible...

... There are rules of literary analysis and the Bible is a piece of literature that obeys the rules of literature.

It's also true that God established the symbolism that is found in the Bible, and the Revelation is full of symbolism - symbolism which remains 100% consistent with the symbolism found in the rest of the Bible - because that's one of those marvels about the Word of God - it always remains 100% consistent with the symbolism originally established, for example, Israel was always symbolized in one of three ways: a vine, a fig tree and/or an olive tree.

When the Bible means for something to be symbolic, the text will indicate that in one of two ways: It will either tell you internally in the given text, OR other Scriptures will point back to it and indicate that it was intended to be symbolic. Absent that, you have no right to establish symbolism where theScriptures do not so indicate.

For that reason, you cannot assume that everytime an olive tree is mentioned, it is symbolic of Israel. The symbolism will always remain the same, but not every appearance of an olive tree is meant to be symbolic. You can create some really create some messed up theology by inserting symbolism where none is inended.

Like you say, this doesn't mean that every time the Revelation mentions "sea" or "earth" that it's necessarily symbolizing the Gentile nations on one hand and/or Israel/the elect on the other hand, and nobody really knows for sure where the symbolism ends and the literal meaning begins.

That is not entirely true. We can know where the symbolism ends and begins. Even in the book of revelation we can tell the difference between symbolism and the fact that John saw some things he could not adequately describe because he had no frame of reference for them, such as modern mechanized military forces.

I don't believe John is being at all symbolic of in his description of the New Heavens and New Earth. It doesn't read like symbolism.

What I am saying in this thread is not so much about symbolism, as it is about trying to assign theological significance to something that the Bible does not assign such significance.

[nebula]

I've been holding back from saying this, but finally decided to make mention of this.

If "no sea" means "no ocean" physically, then that will also mean no clouds and no rain, and basically no other weather other than wind.

Just like Mars.

[Guest]

If "no sea" means "no ocean" physically, then that will also mean no clouds and no rain, and basically no other weather other than wind. Just like Mars.

Well, Maybe So

Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee: Jeremiah 32:17

Maybe Not

Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? Jeremiah 32:27

>>>>>()<<<<<

But

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:1-2

God

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:3-5

Just Like

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1:1-5

It Was In

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Genesis 1:14-19

The Beginning

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. Genesis 2:5-6

>>>>>()<<<<<

Be Blessed Beloved Daughter Of The KING

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 1 John 3:1

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

I've been holding back from saying this, but finally decided to make mention of this.

If "no sea" means "no ocean" physically, then that will also mean no clouds and no rain, and basically no other weather other than wind.

Just like Mars.

We live in a broken world and so we really have no idea what it will be like. We really have no frame of reference for what it will be like. It will be world without decay or defect and no sin. It will be a world illuminated by the the Lord's glory. The closest thing I can think of (and this still doesn't do it justice) is the difference between playing with mud pies by the curb vs. going to Disney Land.

[lekh l'kha]

I never answered this, Shiloh357, because I lost my serious disposition when you put temptation in my way to pull your leg:

.. you have no right to establish symbolism where theScriptures do not so indicate.

Who's going to arrest me if I do - the C.I.A?

Just pulling your leg