On no, not another threadon Acts 2:38!

[Rick-Parker]

Alright, guys, there's an issue that has bothered me for some time; maybe someone here can offer an insight...

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Here's the text of acts 2:38. Some people in here have suggested that the word "for" (Greek: eis) causes the sentence to mean "because your sins are already forgiven."

Forgiveness follows repentance.

If one is already forgiven, where is the need to repent?

Repentance brings with it a relationship with Jesus Christ. Without it, you may be saved, but God will not come close to you; you cannot have a relationship with Him.

[UncleAbee]

Alright, guys, there's an issue that has bothered me for some time; maybe someone here can offer an insight...

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Here's the text of acts 2:38. Some people in here have suggested that the word "for" (Greek: eis) causes the sentence to mean "because your sins are already forgiven."

But if this is the case, then...at what point were they forgiven? I don't know, what do you think? As far as I can tell, up this point, the people did nothing and nothing happened to them. Given the broader teaching of the Bible, in both testaments, it seems strange to suggest that repentance should follow salvation.

Any takers?

does the Holy Spirit come upon a person before or after salvation?

Acts 10:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

To understand Acts 10 you have to look at Acts 11:12-18:

"12"The Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings These six brethren also went with me and we entered the man's house. 13"And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, 'Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household 15"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning."

Vs 14 clearly says that "words" will be spoken by which salvation would come. It did not say the Holy Ghost would save anyone. It said "words." In Acts 10:44 the HG fell while Peter was still speaking. This is also recounted in v 15 above. The HG fell as Peter "began to speak." This means he was not done with the "words" by which they would be saved.

"16"And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17"Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" 18When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Vs 18 is the key. The HG falling on the Gentiles was an irrefutable sign that salvation was for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. The HG falling on them did not save them. They had to be baptized (Acts 10:47-48) for that to occur. Once Peter witnessed the HG fall on them he knew he could not deny them entrance to the Kingdom. They were acceptable subjects for baptism. This all stems back to Acts 2:39 where Peter says "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." Peter, under the HG influence, says that salvation is for all but did not follow what he had said. Peter clearly did not understand what he said under the influence of the HG. Peter wasn't practicing it. God had to show him through a miracle vision in Acts 10:10-16 that salvation was for everyone. The falling of the HG in this manner happened 3 times. 1st in Acts 2. This signified that salvation had come the Jews. 2nd in Acts 8 for the Samaritans who practiced a deviant form of Judaism. Third in Acts 10 for the Gentiles. These occasions signified that the subjects were acceptable candidates for salvation. The HG falling on them did not mean they were saved.

Running Gator wrote - "Would the person that accepts Jesus and is killed on his way to the church to be baptized is go to hell?" - Again, these far fetched examples. I have never witnessed this to happen. Baptism can be done anywhere. All that is needed is enough water. Are any of you in this situation now?

also wrote - "When does the Holy Spirit come upon a believer, before or after salvation?" - Neither. It all occurs at the same time.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

What Baptism did Abraham actively work in?

peace,

dave

[Guest shiloh357]

Vs 14 clearly says that "words" will be spoken by which salvation would come. It did not say the Holy Ghost would save anyone.

The Holy Spirit is the agent of salvation. The Holy Spirit draws us to Christ and places us in Chrsit and the Holy Spirit fulfills the righteousness of the law within us. Any time that salvation takes place, it is the Holy Spirit who serves as the agent of salvation.

The HG falling on the Gentiles was an irrefutable sign that salvation was for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. The HG falling on them did not save them.

Actually, it exactly means that the Holy Spirit saved them. You are trying to parse words, but the Holy Spirit does not fall on unbelievers. He falls or descends upon those who believe.

Running Gator wrote - "Would the person that accepts Jesus and is killed on his way to the church to be baptized is go to hell?" - Again, these far fetched examples. I have never witnessed this to happen. Baptism can be done anywhere. All that is needed is enough water. Are any of you in this situation now?

It is not a far fetched example. What about someone who is in the hospital, near death and receives the gospel, but due to hooked up to machines and other things is unable to be taken to a baptismal or in any way immersed in water? What about someone who gets saved in an airplane but does not have access to water and the plane crashes and all of the people on board die? Those are real-life scenarios.

I would also posit, this: What about someone who was baptized in a Baptist church that does not believe baptism is necessary for salvation; does their baptism count, or does it have to be performed in a church expressly for the purpose of being saved?

[HitmanR2]

I would also posit, this: What about someone who was baptized in a Baptist church that does not believe baptism is necessary for salvation; does their baptism count, or does it have to be performed in a church expressly for the purpose of being saved?

IMHO the act (of Water Baptism) is an act of physical obedience to a spiritual God, not much different than the circumcison of the Jews.

I think it is more an act of personal obedience rather than church ordinance. So wouldn't the Baptism be universal?

[Guest shiloh357]

I would also posit, this: What about someone who was baptized in a Baptist church that does not believe baptism is necessary for salvation; does their baptism count, or does it have to be performed in a church expressly for the purpose of being saved?

IMHO the act (of Water Baptism) is an act of physical obedience to a spiritual God, not much different than the circumcison of the Jews.

I think it is more an act of personal obedience rather than church ordinance. So wouldn't the Baptism be universal?

You would think it would be, but there are those who believe that baptism has to be done for the express purpose of remission of sins; ergo, if you got baptized as an act of obedience, but not under view that it was a necessary act of salvation, your baptism would not be considered valid. For that reason, groups like the Apostolic Pentacostals and Church of Christ do not view any act of baptism by any other denomination as valid, and thus if you got baptized in any other deomination, you are not saved. At least that is how it has been explained by them on this board in previous threads.

[stevehut]

If one is already forgiven, where is the need to repent?

My thoughts exactly. Hence, my bewilderment.

[Guest man]

Repentance brings with it a relationship with Jesus Christ. Without it, you may be saved, but God will not come close to you; you cannot have a relationship with Him.

Mind telling me how that works?

[Rick-Parker]

Repentance brings with it a relationship with Jesus Christ. Without it, you may be saved, but God will not come close to you; you cannot have a relationship with Him.

Mind telling me how that works?

Sure. God cannot look upon sin, so how can you have a relationship with Him when you are living in sin? If you tick your father off, you are still his son/daughter but he doesn't interact with you. When you get right with him, then he starts interacting with you again. Just like it never happened. It's the same with God. Pretty simple to me.

[Guest man]

Repentance brings with it a relationship with Jesus Christ. Without it, you may be saved, but God will not come close to you; you cannot have a relationship with Him.

Mind telling me how that works?

Sure. God cannot look upon sin, so how can you have a relationship with Him when you are living in sin? If you tick your father off, you are still his son/daughter but he doesn't interact with you. When you get right with him, then he starts interacting with you again. Just like it never happened. It's the same with God. Pretty simple to me.

So repentance has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation?