Nearness of the Rapture

wyguy · September 8, 2010

But God isn't willing to take away the free will of saved people. So even after they've been cleansed from their past sins by their faith in Christ's sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25) and their repentance and confession to God (1 John 1:9), they can still subsequently wrongly employ their will to return back to committing their old sins again without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they'd never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 10:26-29).

You keep using 1 John 1:9 and have no idea that it is for unsaved people only - those repenting for the first time and coming to Christ. It has nothing to do with maintaining salvation.

And 2 Peter 2:20-22 talks of those who know how to be saved, knowing who Jesus is and what he did, and instead of responding in repentance and faith, instead turn back to their "vomit."

Hebrews 10:26-29 speaks again of those that have a knowledge of how to be saved but choose to reject salvation and continue in sin. And just so you know, it says in part: "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left." Well guess what? EVERY sin you commit is DELIBERATE. And you keep on deliberately sinning your whole life.

And the others the Bible addresses are simply false converts - Christians in name only. And those also have nothing to do with the eternal security of an actual believer.

You are simply one of those people who mix the works of the Law and Grace. Sin is transgression of the Law, and you are basically trying to bribe the judge with your good works - thinking you must do good works to maintain your salvation. But the Bible says: All who rely on observing the Law are under a curse, for it is written: 'cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the Law.' Clearly no one is justified before God by the Law, because the righteous will live by faith." (Galatians 3:10-11).

And Galatians says: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the Law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?"

Galatians 3:23-25 says "we are no longer under the supervision of the Law." And that the Law was only to "LEAD us to Christ."

And "You who are trying to be justified by the Law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from Grace." (Galatians 5:4).

And you are forgetting the fact that Jesus ABOLISHED the Law via the Cross. (Colossians 2:14, Ephesians 2:15, Romans 10:4).

You are trying to justify yourself by your works, but the Bible says: "..if righteousness could be gained through the Law, Christ died for nothing." (Galatians 2:21)

The Bible says we are COMPLETELY justified by faith APART from observing the Law (Romans 3:27-28).

The Bible also says you CAN'T observe the Law. Not even the Jews, to whom the Law was given, could obey it (Galatians 6:13).

You are simply full of pride - boasting about your good works, and how they keep you saved. You seem to me to be nothing more than a modern day Pharisee.

Bible2 · September 9, 2010

FresnoJoe said:

Jesus Saves

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Amen.

But saved people retaining their salvation will be ultimately conditional on their continued belief (John 15:6, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14), their continued good works and obedience (John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9), and their continued repentance from every sin that they might commit (Matthew 24:48-51, Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27).

FresnoJoe said:

Jesus Saves

Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil,

unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. [Hebrews 3:12]

Amen.

Hebrews 3:12 means that it's possible for saved people to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

FresnoJoe said:

Jesus Saves

But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called

Bible2 · September 9, 2010

wyguy said:

You keep using 1 John 1:9 and have no idea that it is for unsaved people only - those repenting for the first time and coming to Christ. It has nothing to do with maintaining salvation.

1 John 1:9 would apply both to the initial confession of past sins when people first get saved, and also to already-saved people subsequently asking for forgiveness every day (Matthew 6:11-12, Luke 11:3-4) for any as-yet-unconfessed sins that they might have committed subsequent to their salvation. For faith in Jesus' blood only remits sins that are past (Romans 3:25), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9). Saved people who commit unrepentant sin will in the end lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9).

wyguy said:

And 2 Peter 2:20-22 talks of those who know how to be saved, knowing who Jesus is and what he did, and instead of responding in repentance and faith, instead turn back to their "vomit."

2 Peter 2:20-22 is referrring to those who had truly been saved, for they had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (cf. 2 Peter 1:4), they had truly been washed (cf. Hebrews 10:22, 1 Corinthians 6:11), through knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (cf. 2 Peter 1:3-4, John 17:3,17). But they nonetheless subsequently wrongly employed their will to return back to their old sins without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they'd never been saved at all (Hebrews 10:26-29).

wyguy said:

Hebrews 10:26-29 speaks again of those that have a knowledge of how to be saved but choose to reject salvation and continue in sin.

Hebrews 10:26-29 is referring to saved people, people who have actually been sanctified by Jesus' sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18, Romans 3:25). Hebrews 10:26-29 is referring to people who after they get saved wrongly employ their will to commit any sin whatsoever without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4).

The immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25-29, which is addressing "we" saved people. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Saved people need to gather together and exhort each other so that no saved person will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9).

wyguy said:

And just so you know, it says in part: "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left." Well guess what? EVERY sin you commit is DELIBERATE. And you keep on deliberately sinning your whole life.

Hebrews 10:26-29 is referring to sin which can't be forgiven even through Christ's sacrifice because it's sin which is being presently continued in without repentance; it hasn't been placed into the past (Romans 3:25), as in repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9). So "if we sin wilfully" (Hebrews 10:26) means "if we sin without repentance". It doesn't just mean "If we sin because we want to", because every saved person has sinned because he wants to (James 1:14-15), and yet his sins as a saved person can still be forgiven if he repents from them and confesses them to God (1 John 1:9), placing them into the past (Romans 3:25), such as during his daily prayers asking for forgiveness for his sins (Matthew 6:11-12, Luke 11:3-4).

wyguy said:

And the others the Bible addresses are simply false converts - Christians in name only. And those also have nothing to do with the eternal security of an actual believer.

The Bible shows that a true convert, a Christian in fact, an actual believer, an actually-saved person, can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Another way that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his will to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, Revelation 22:14, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14).

Another way that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his will to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his will to not help a Christian in need, without repentance (Matthew 25:41-46).

Another way that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his will to not provide for his own family, without repentance (1 Timothy 5:8).

Another way that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his will to commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit is performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30).

Another way that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his will to remove words from the text of the book of Revelation, and then publishes the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19).

A saved person can in the end be cut off the same as an unbeliever if he doesn't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). A saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome unto the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

wyguy said:

You are simply one of those people who mix the works of the Law and Grace.

Actually, no, insofar as the Bible makes clear that saved people aren't to be deceived by the false, cursed gospel that says that believers have to be circumcised and do all the other works of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Galatians 1:6-9, Galatians 5:2-4, Galatians 3:10-14, Acts 15:1,5).

But the Bible also makes clear that believers do have to patiently continue to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8) if they want to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Revelation 22:14, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Saved people must patiently continue to obey the New Covenant law of Christ (Galatians 6:2, 1 Corinthians 9:21, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28), for it's only in keeping the New Covenant/New Testament commandments of Christ (John 14:15, 1 Thessalonians 4:2, 1 Corinthians 14:37) that saved people can be sure that they're truly loving God (1 John 5:3, John 14:23-24), and that they're remaining in God's love (John 15:10, John 14:23, Jude 1:21). Saved people must fear being ultimately cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46).

Also, regarding your referring to Grace, (as we saw earlier) Hebrews 10:26-29 refers to people who after they get initially saved wrongly employ their will to commit sin without repentance. By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they'd never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22).

wyguy said:

Sin is transgression of the Law, . . . [1 John 3:4]

1 John 3:4 doesn't mean that saved people are sinning if they aren't obeying the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For Jesus abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic commandments on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15, Hebrews 7:18-19, Colossians 2:14) and established the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, John 1:17). Christians are delivered from the letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosac law and aren't to keep the letter of any part of it (Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18). Christians keep the spirit of the entire Old Covenant law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing unto others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

Jesus taught that Christians have to obey his New Covenant/New Testament commandments, such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19-7:29) and in the writings of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37, 1 Thessalonians 4:2). These New Covenant commandments far exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:20-48). So there's no reason why any Christian should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant commandments (Galatians 3:2-5:26).

Pharisaical thinking can deceive Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1, Galatians 5:4). But (as we saw earlier) this a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9), for if any Christians are keeping the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, thinking that they must do so in order to be saved, then they've fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

Christians can thank God that the abolished letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law was just a temporary "schoomaster" covenant (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary "shadow" covenant (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he'd set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in the New Covenant of Christ (Galatians 3:16-29). No Christian should in any way desire to go back into bondage under the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21-25, Galatians 5:1, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18).

wyguy said:

. . . and you are basically trying to bribe the judge with your good works - thinking you must do good works to maintain your salvation.

When initially saved people perform good works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8), they aren't trying to bribe God to forgive their sins or grant them ultimate salvation, for God can't be bribed, and sins can only be forgiven through faith in Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25). But God does nonetheless still require that those with faith patiently continue in good works and obedience if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, Philippians 2:12), for faith without works is dead (James 2:17-26).

wyguy said:

But the Bible says: All who rely on observing the Law are under a curse, for it is written: 'cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the Law.' Clearly no one is justified before God by the Law, because the righteous will live by faith." (Galatians 3:10-11).

Amen.

Note that it hasn't been said that believers should rely on observing the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

wyguy said:

And Galatians says: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the Law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" [Galatians 3:2-3]

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:2-3).

Galatians 3:1-5 means that the works of the Old Covenant Mosaic law can't make believers perfect. But Galatians 3:1-5 is in no way contradicting the fact that believers must patiently continue to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Revelation 22:14, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

(Continued)

Bible2 · September 9, 2010

(Continued)

wyguy said:

Galatians 3:23-25 says "we are no longer under the supervision of the Law." And that the Law was only to "LEAD us to Christ."

Amen.

Note that it hasn't been said that believers are under the supervision of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

wyguy said:

And "You who are trying to be justified by the Law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from Grace." (Galatians 5:4).

Amen.

Note that it hasn't been said that believers should try to be justified by performing the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

wyguy said:

And you are forgetting the fact that Jesus ABOLISHED the Law via the Cross. (Colossians 2:14, Ephesians 2:15, Romans 10:4).

How has that fact been forgotten?

wyguy said:

You are trying to justify yourself by your works, but the Bible says: "..if righteousness could be gained through the Law, Christ died for nothing." (Galatians 2:21)

The Bible says we are COMPLETELY justified by faith APART from observing the Law (Romans 3:27-28).

Galatians 2:21 and Romans 3:28 mean that believers aren't justified by performing the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. Galatians 2:21 and Romans 3:28 don't mean that believers aren't ultimately justified by both faith and works of faith (James 2:24).

Or, to put it another way, Galatians 2:21 and Romans 3:27-28 are only countering the false idea that believers have to perform the works of the letter of the Mosaic law in order to be saved. Galatians 2:21 and Romans 3:27-28 aren't countering the true idea that initially saved people have to patiently continue to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

wyguy said:

The Bible also says you CAN'T observe the Law. Not even the Jews, to whom the Law was given, could obey it (Galatians 6:13).

Note that it hasn't been said that believers have to observe the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

wyguy said:

You are simply full of pride - boasting about your good works, and how they keep you saved. You seem to me to be nothing more than a modern day Pharisee.

Christians should avoid arguing ad hominem (2 Timothy 2:24).

Please provide some quotations from what's been posted which prove a fullness of pride, a boasting about good works, or Pharisaism.

Bible2 · September 9, 2010

dgwright11 said:

Is You
If you carefully look at your quote from Hosea 6:6, you will find that God is not talking about animal sacrifices, but of Israel's insincerity as well as the church today.
For in Isaiah 29:13 the God of the Bible say's through His servant Isaiah; " Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men."

Therefore, the whole book of Hosea is an admonishment towards Israel and the Church today to return to the Lord their God or else suffer the Judgement by not
being obiedent to the word of God.

How does looking carefully at Hosea 6:6, or at Isaiah 29:13, or at the whole book of Hosea require that "sacrifice" in Hosea 6:6 isn't referring to animal sacrifices?

And what has been posted that contradicts the fact that believers must be obedient (Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a)?

For what was said was that Hosea 6:6 is referring to animal sacrifices, not the living sacrifices which saved people must offer of their own bodies to God in their daily service to him (Romans 12:1, 2 Corinthians 5:15, Luke 9:23).

dgwright11 said:

Can we be obiedent to the word of God?? No that is impossible unless the Father of whom has sent me (Jesus) draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day
(John 6:44).

Amen.

It's impossible for anyone to be obedient apart from becoming a believer and abiding in Jesus (John 15:5), just as it's impossible for anyone on his own to ever believe in Jesus and be initially saved through his own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or through his own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16). For everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12).

dgwright11 said:

Nonetheless, the sacrifices that God wants is a broken and a contrite heart, this He will not despise. Psalm 51:17.

Amen.

God also wants (as was referred to earlier) saved people to offer up their entire bodies to God as living sacrifices in their daily service to him (Romans 12:1, 2 Corinthians 5:15, Luke 9:23).

dgwright11 said:

To end or begin a chat with this group regarding the rapture even though would not want to believe the rapture and the beginning of judgement begins May 21,
2010. I look forward to your response.

Did you mean May 21, 2011? If so, the rapture can't possibly happen in 2011, because the coming (years-long) tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 hasn't even started yet, and Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

Jesus can't return and gather together the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Matthew 24:9-31, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20).

Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the world-reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31).

Also, looking back at your post #152 in this thread, you said:

The flood was 4990 . . .

Do you mean Noah's flood? If so, Noah's flood may have occurred only about 2458 B.C. This is based on various verses in the Bible which make it possible to estimate the year B.C that Noah's flood occurred by working back from the year B.C. that Solomon's temple began to be built:

Historians say that Solomon's temple began to be built about 966 B.C.

And 1 Kings 6:1 says that Solomon's temple began to be built 480 years after the Exodus of Israel from Egypt.

And Exodus 12:40-41 says that Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus.

And Genesis 47:9 shows that Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 years old.

And Genesis 25:26 says that Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 years old.

And Genesis 21:5 says that Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 years old.

And Genesis 11:26 shows that Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 years old.

And Genesis 11:24 says that Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 years old.

And Genesis 11:22 says that Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 years old.

And Genesis 11:20 says that Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 years old.

And Genesis 11:18 says that Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 years old.

And Genesis 11:16 says that Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 years old.

And Genesis 11:14 says that Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 years old.

And Genesis 11:12 says that Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 years old.

And Genesis 11:10 says that Arphaxad was born two years after the flood.

So all we have to do is add up all of the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood may have occurred about 2458 B.C.

. . . take 2011 subtract 4990 and minus one year, because there is no year Zero and you have 7000 years.

Didn't you mean: take 2011 and add 4990?

Also, why minus one year because there was no year zero? Even without a year zero, all the years from 2011 A.D. back to 4990 B.C. still add up to 7001 years. (Did you start by preaching May, 2010 for a 7,000th-year rapture, like in your slip above, but then tried to come up with a one-year adjustment when it didn't happen? What further adjustment could you make when the rapture doesn't happen in 2011?)

Also, where did you get the year 4990 for the flood?

Note that 7,000 years after the Biblical/historical date for the flood (about 2458 B.C.) will be about 4542 A.D. Should we then be waiting for something significant to happen about 4542 A.D.?

Why does something significant have to happen exactly 7,000 years after the flood?

Some people have mistakenly thought that the Millennium of Revelation 20:4-6 would have to begin exactly 6,000 (not 7,000) years after Adam's creation (not Noah's flood).

But various verses in the Bible (a few more than the ones listed above) make it possible to estimate the year B.C that Adam (as opposed to the earth) was created, by working back from the year B.C. that Solomon's temple began to be built: