Nearness of the Rapture

[Bible2]

FresnoJoe said:

You Have Two Choices

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to initial salvation, which isn't based on works (Titus 3:5). But ultimate salvation will be based on works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9).

FresnoJoe said:

You Will Either Accept The Work Of Christ And Yield To Become His Workmanship

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: John 3:36(a)

Note that John 3:36a doesn't say that salvation can't be lost (John 15:2,6).

FresnoJoe said:

Or You Will Remain A Self Made-Man

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36(b)

John 3:36b refers to unbelievers.

FresnoJoe said:

Your Choice

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Choose Wisely

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18

Note that John 3:16-18 doesn't say that salvation can't be lost (John 15:2,6).

FresnoJoe said:

And Be Blessed Beloved

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:17

That's Jeremiah 15:16. Note that it doesn't say that salvation can't be lost, for a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9), or if he wrongly employs his will to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9), or if he wrongly employs his will to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4). A saved person can in the end be cut off the same as an unbeliever if he doesn't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). A saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome (Revelation 3:5).

[Bible2]

wyguy said:

Gimmie an L! Gimmie an E! Gimmie a G! Gimmie an A! Gimmie an L! Gimmie an I-S-M!

What does it spell?

LEGALISM!

The Bible itself shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they actually obey Jesus (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2).

wyguy said:

What you're all about is nothing but works-righteousness.

The Bible itself teaches works righteousness (1 John 3:7).

wyguy said:

You take the focus off what Christ has done and put it all upon YOU and your WORKS.

It's not either/or, but both/and: we will obtain ultimate salvation only if we believe in what Christ has done (Romans 3:25, John 3:36) and have works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2, Hebrews 5:9).

wyguy said:

Again, the whole idea of a believer having to keep begging for forgiveness for what has already been forgiven at the cross (ALL of their sins) is a slap in the face to justification through Christ's finished work of redemption.

The blood of Jesus only remits sins that are past (Romans 3:25), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9). Jesus' blood doesn't remit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). So saved people can in the end lose their salvation if they wrongly employ their will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9).

Hebrews 10:26-29 is referring to saved people, people who have actually been sanctified by Jesus' sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18, Romans 3:25). Hebrews 10:26-29 is referring to people who after they get saved wrongly employ their will to commit any sin whatsoever without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22).

wyguy said:

The saved person has been saved by the grace, that is the unmerited favor, of God; Salvation is a gift which a person has received by faith; Since he never began to deserve it, therefore he cannot keep it by deserving it!

Initial salvation is by grace alone, not based on works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), but ultimate salvation will depend on works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9).

wyguy said:

And since, even to the end of the person's earthly life, he must go on coming short of the glory of God, which would forfeit his salvation if it was forfeitable; Therefore, if any person is ever finally saved at all, it must be by God's power alone and not by any of his own meritorious works or deservings.

Ultimate salvation won't be based on God's actions alone, for then God would have to be turn all saved people into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whose strings God pulls to make them dance across the stage. But thank God that, instead, he leaves all saved people as his real children with free wills. And because he leaves them with free wills, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus (Luke 9:23) to the end. But there's no assurance that they will choose to do that:

For initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, Luke 8:13, John 15:6, Hebrews 6:4-8, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2).

Also, even if they do continue in good works, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin they might commit to the end (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Hebrews 5:9), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 24:48-51, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46). Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome (Revelation 3:5), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

wyguy said:

Your works didn't earn you salvation, so your works aren't going to keep your salvation.

Works can't earn initial salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), but a believer must do works if he's to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14).

wyguy said:

Jesus didn't die on the cross to share the credit with you.

At the judgment of the church, at the second coming, what will Jesus' saying to some: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" (Matthew 25:21) be if not him giving some credit?

[wyguy]

You do realise that even the very works that you do are GIVEN to you from God, right? (Romans 8:30) And the power to do them: (Philippians 2:13) So you can't even claim credit for ANY of them AT ALL.

And that God imputes righteousness WITHOUT works: "Now, when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation - however, to the man WHO DOES NOT WORK but TRUSTS God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness....unto whom God IMPUTES righteousness WITHOUT WORKS." (Romans 4:4-6)

Know why? Because ALL of the focus should be on Christ and NOT you! He gets the credit for EVERYTHING including any of your works! Your faith, your righteousness, you holiness, it ALL comes from God APART from YOU!

That's why when we are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ and we are given crowns for our service, like the 24 Elders, WE WILL CAST THEM AT THE FEET OF JESUS BECAUSE IT IS HE ALONE THAT DESERVES THE GLORY!

Yet, you claim we remain righteous (saved) through works.

Your way of thinking goes like this:

God: Here's the FREE GIFT of salvation!

Man: Wow! Thank-you! What must I do to earn it?

God: Nothing. It's a GIFT.

Man: That's great!

God: Ummmm, but I want you to do lots of things to keep it...

Man: But, you just said it was a gift.

God: Well, yes, INITIALLY it is, but after that you have to work for it or you'll lose it.

Man: Uhh, but then it really wasn't a gift if I have to keep working for it..

God: GET TO WORK!

Faith leads to salvation which PRODUCES good works. NOT faith PLUS good works earns salvation/continued salvation.

And the Bible clearly teaches even those works have no bearing on the person's salvation: ""But there is going to come a time of testing at the Judgment Day to see what kind of work each builder has done. Everyone's work will be put through the fire to see whether or not it keeps it's value. If the work survives the fire, that builder will receive a reward. But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. THE BUILDERS THEMSELVES WILL BE SAVED, but like someone escaping through the flames." (1 Corinthians 3:13-15)

You will not stop sinning until you go to meet the Lord. You will sin every day of your life. Because NOBODY keeps this commandment: "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength..." (Mark 12:30)

NONE of us do that. If you did, you would never commit one single sin.

You are saved, and remain so, by GRACE ALONE.

"So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then IT IS NO LONGER BY WORKS; and if it were, grace would NO LONGER be grace." (Romans 11:5-6)

You have this burning desire to share in God's glory through your works to earn your continued salvation, but God does not share His glory with anyone else: (Isaiah 48:11).

It isn't about you, it's NEVER been about you. It's ALL about HIM. God saves us, and keeps us saved for ONE reason ONLY - that HE may be glorified!

HIM not YOU!

PS: How many times did you lose/gain your salvation today?

[OneLight]

Let's remember ...

Ephesians 2:8-10 (New King James Version)

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Verse 10 explains it all.

[Guest]

....a believer must do works if he's to obtain ultimate salvation....

Work

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29

Or Works

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

Your Choice

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

>>>>()<<<<

The Truth Is So Terribly Terribly Dry And So Very Very Hard

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

For A Proud Working Hard Riding Man To Swallow

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. John 6:35

Especially When He Has To Release

So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Revelation 2:15

The Little Ones Back

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. Revelation 2:6

To Their

Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake. Psalms 79:9

Daddy

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6

Bless His Holy Name

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

>>>>>(()<<<<

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:

for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said,

and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

[Bible2]

wyguy said:

You do realise that even the very works that you do are GIVEN to you from God, right? (Romans 8:30)

Romans 8:30 refers to initial salvation, which God accomplishes apart from our works (Ephesians 2:8-9). But our ultimate salvation will depend on our works (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2).

wyguy said:

And the power to do them: (Philippians 2:13)

While God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13), they still have to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

wyguy said:

So you can't even claim credit for ANY of them AT ALL.

Obedient Christians must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit (Luke 17:10). But at the judgment of the church, at the second coming, Jesus will give them some credit (Matthew 25:21).

wyguy said:

And that God imputes righteousness WITHOUT works: "Now, when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation - however, to the man WHO DOES NOT WORK but TRUSTS God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness....unto whom God IMPUTES righteousness WITHOUT WORKS." (Romans 4:4-6)

See the reply above regarding Romans 8:30.

wyguy said:

Know why? Because ALL of the focus should be on Christ and NOT you!

It's not either/or, but both/and (Philippians 2:12-13).

wyguy said:

He gets the credit for EVERYTHING including any of your works!

See the reply above to "So you can't even claim credit for ANY of them AT ALL".

wyguy said:

Your faith, your righteousness, you holiness, it ALL comes from God APART from YOU!

Initially, yes. But initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, Luke 8:13, John 15:6, Hebrews 6:4-8, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they repent from every sin they might commit to the end (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Hebrews 5:9), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 24:48-51, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

wyguy said:

That's why when we are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ and we are given crowns for our service, like the 24 Elders, WE WILL CAST THEM AT THE FEET OF JESUS BECAUSE IT IS HE ALONE THAT DESERVES THE GLORY!

See the reply above to "So you can't even claim credit for ANY of them AT ALL".

Also, it should be pointed out that some Christians will lose their salvation at the judgment of the church, at the second coming, because of unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:48-51), or because of unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or because of apostasy (Mark 8:35-38). That's why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12, 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

wyguy said:

Yet, you claim we remain righteous (saved) through works.

What's been said is that the Bible itself teaches works righteousness (1 John 3:7), and that the Bible itself teaches that our ultimate salvation will depend on our works (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2).

wyguy said:

Your way of thinking goes like this:

God: Here's the FREE GIFT of salvation!

Man: Wow! Thank-you! What must I do to earn it?

God: Nothing. It's a GIFT.

Man: That's great!

God: Ummmm, but I want you to do lots of things to keep it...

Man: But, you just said it was a gift.

God: Well, yes, INITIALLY it is, but after that you have to work for it or you'll lose it.

Man: Uhh, but then it really wasn't a gift if I have to keep working for it..

God: GET TO WORK!

A free gift can require some work to keep. For example, imagine a father gives his 10-year-old son a little puppy as a free gift [cf. Romans 6:23], but he warns his son that he has to remember to do the work of feeding and watering the puppy every day [cf. Luke 9:23] or it will die [James 2:26]. The son says no problem and takes good care of the puppy for a few weeks, but then gets so distracted by playing video games that he forgets to feed and water the puppy for three days and it dies. Does this mean that the puppy wasn't a free gift?

(Continued)

Edited August 28, 2010 by Bible2

[Bible2]

(Continued)

wyguy said:

Faith leads to salvation which PRODUCES good works.

Salvation doesn't automatically produce good works; that's why Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8, John 15:2, Matthew 25:26,30, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9).

wyguy said:

NOT faith PLUS good works earns salvation/continued salvation.

Faith plus patient continuance in good works will obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9).

wyguy said:

And the Bible clearly teaches even those works have no bearing on the person's salvation: ""But there is going to come a time of testing at the Judgment Day to see what kind of work each builder has done. Everyone's work will be put through the fire to see whether or not it keeps it's value. If the work survives the fire, that builder will receive a reward. But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. THE BUILDERS THEMSELVES WILL BE SAVED, but like someone escaping through the flames." (1 Corinthians 3:13-15)

1 Corinthians 3:15 refers only to the loss of reward for the work of spiritually building up a church congregation (1 Corinthians 3:8-17), if that work is done in a faulty, worldly manner (1 Corinthians 3:18-21) which focuses on the merely-temporal "wood, hay, stubble" (1 Corinthians 3:12) of human, worldly wisdom (1 Corinthians 3:18-20).

Other verses in the Bible show that if a saved person, whether a church builder or not, wrongly employs his will to stop doing any works whatsoever, to become utterly lazy without repentance, he will in the end lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9).

wyguy said:

You will not stop sinning until you go to meet the Lord. You will sin every day of your life. Because NOBODY keeps this commandment: "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength..." (Mark 12:30)

NONE of us do that. If you did, you would never commit one single sin.

As many times as a Christian might sin in a day (cf. Luke 17:4, Matthew 18:21-22), his daily sins can be forgiven if he repents and asks God's forgiveness in his daily prayers (Matthew 6:11-12).

A Christian will only lose his salvation in the end if he wrongly employs his will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9).

wyguy said:

You are saved, and remain so, by GRACE ALONE.

"So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then IT IS NO LONGER BY WORKS; and if it were, grace would NO LONGER be grace." (Romans 11:5-6)

See the reply above regarding Romans 8:30.

wyguy said:

You have this burning desire to share in God's glory through your works to earn your continued salvation, but God does not share His glory with anyone else: (Isaiah 48:11).

It isn't about you, it's NEVER been about you. It's ALL about HIM. God saves us, and keeps us saved for ONE reason ONLY - that HE may be glorified!

HIM not YOU!

Isaiah 48:11 meant only that God wouldn't give his glory for doing Isaiah 48:9-10 to another.

For God does give his glory to Christians (Romans 8:30, 2 Thessalonians 2:14, Romans 8:17, 1 Peter 5:1,4, Romans 2:7,10, 1 Corinthians 2:7, 2 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 15:43, 2 Corinthians 4:17, Ephesians 5:27).

wyguy said:

PS: How many times did you lose/gain your salvation today?

Salvation isn't lost until the judgment of the church, at the second coming, and then only for unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:48-51), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38).

[Bible2]

FresnoJoe said:

Work

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29

Amen.

John 6:28-29 means that for people to work the works of God they first must believe in Jesus, for apart from Jesus, people can work no works of God (John 15:5).

In order to obtain ultimate salvation, believers in Jesus must patiently continue in good works (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14), but there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2).

Also, in order to obtain ultimate salvation, believers in Jesus must patiently continue to believe unto the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14), but there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, Luke 8:13, John 15:6, Hebrews 6:4-8, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

FresnoJoe said:

Or Works

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

Hebrews 6:4-8 means that even saved people, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can in the end lose their salvation because of wrongly employing their will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to formally renounce their faith in Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 2:12, 1 Timothy 4:1, John 15:6, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).

One way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, saved people can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and they instead seek out and latch onto any man-made teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he completely renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in order to keep from being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38, 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense during the coming tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take control of the entire earth and make war against Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) during that time and worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and receiving his mark on the forehead or the right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18); whoever does these things, no matter if they had been saved before, will end up suffering eternal torment in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4), before doing these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome (Revelation 3:5). An example of saved people "overcoming" <G3528> or "getting the victory" <G3528> (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those saved people who will be willing to be killed by the coming Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their lives during the coming worldwide persecution against Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and the devil by not loving their lives unto the death (Revelation 12:11).

FresnoJoe said:

Your Choice

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

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The Truth Is So Terribly Terribly Dry And So Very Very Hard

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

John 3:36 and John 3:16-18 mean that there can be no salvation apart from faith in Jesus. They don't mean that salvation can't be lost in the end for failing to do good works (John 15:2) or for committing apostasy (John 15:6).

FresnoJoe said:

For A Proud Working Hard Riding Man To Swallow

Christians should avoid arguing ad hominem (2 Timothy 2:24).

FresnoJoe said:

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. John 6:35

Amen.

But John 6:35 applies only if people continue to believe (John 15:6) and do good works (John 15:2).

FresnoJoe said:

Especially When He Has To Release

So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Revelation 2:15

The Little Ones Back

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. Revelation 2:6

To Their

Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake. Psalms 79:9

Daddy

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6

Regarding the Nicolaitans (Revelation 2:15), they were Gnostic-type Christians (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 11) who falsely claimed to follow the teachings of a man named "Nicolaus" (Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Book 2, Chapter 20), also called the deacon "Nicolas" (Acts 6:5) (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 26, Part 3). The Nicolaitans were "lovers of pleasure" (Ignatius, Epistle to the Trallians, Chapter 11) who lived in "unrestrained indulgence" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 26, Part 3). They placed "the highest happiness in pleasure" (Ignatius, Epistle to the Philadelphians, Chapter 6). They taught Christian "licentiousness" (Easton's Bible Dictionary), "abandoning themselves to pleasure" (Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Book 2, Chapter 20) instead of believing in the need for Christians to repent from sin (Revelation 2:16).

So to release God's children from the Nicolaitans would be to preach to God's children the hard truth that a saved person will in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9).

Regarding Psalms 79:9, a sin we commit can only be purged if we repent from it (Hebrews 10:26-29) and confess it to God (1 John 1:9).

Regarding Galatians 4:6, we mustn't think that being God's children means that we don't have to repent when we commit a sin, for under the Old Covenant Mosaic law, a father was commanded to have his own child stoned to death if his child refused to repent (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), and under the New Covenant, God will be even harsher to unrepentant sin than he was under the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 10:26-29).

FresnoJoe said:

Bless His Holy Name

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:

for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said,

and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

Amen.

But see the reply above regarding John 3:36.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Good info Bible2...bottom line we can't earn salvation its a free gift, but we can choose to walk way from God's grace through sin and disobedience to God. Hence the words: Apostacy, Backsliding, and Abandoning our Faith. The New Testament speaks about good works as much as it does about faith. You can't have one with out the other. You can say you have faith but in works deny God or vise versa you can have good works but inwardly deny God and have no faith, botyh are required. Yes God enables us with the ability to do good works but it's ultimately our choice to use the abilities that God gave us with faith. We can choice to live in obedience to God or disobedience and abandon God. God is not going to force you either way; ultimately its your choice and it's not a one time choice its a daily commitment.

[Guest]

But see the reply above regarding John 3:36.

Nevertheless Dear One, The Word Still Stands

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

One Will Either Trust In Jesus Or One Remains Condemned

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

One Will Either Please God

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

One Will Either Obey

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Or One Will

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelations 22:13-14

Not

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Revelations 22:15

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Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Psalms 103:1