Mary.

[Guest shiloh357]

The idea that the Bible should be in the hands of each person to read for themselves was anathema.

and look what happened when the false man-made doctrine of 'sola scriptura' was invented and each person was encouraged to read the bible for himself and figure out what it means ... CHAOS! No one agrees with one another, YET they all claim to be 'inspired by the holy spirit'! :suspect:

Yeah the last thing the Catholic "church" wants is a bunch of people who think for themselves.

You brag about how "unified" the "church" prior to the Protestantism. Here is the source of that "unity."

According to the official teaching of the Catholic Church, Catholic men and women are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the bishops of the Church interpret a passage and they are to accept what the bishops teach as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself. They are not allowed to use their own judgment or follow their own conscience. They are required to believe whatever the bishops teach without questioning it. (Catechism 85, 87, 100, 862, 891, 939, 2034, 2037, 2041, 2050)

The Catholic Church teaches that when the bishops officially teach doctrine relating to faith and morals, then God super

[Guest Berkana]

There are no infallible teachers besides Christ Himself

Disagreement amongst the Protestants does not prove Rome to be infallible.

I agree completely. The Bible warns us about those who try to lead us astray by insisting that they alone have the authority to teach:

1 John 2:26-27

I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

And yes, indeed, there is disagreement amongst those who claim to be Christians about how to intperpret the Bible. Does this mean that the Catholic Church alone is infallible and that the true spirit guided interpretation does not exist? Hardly; no more so than the presence of weeds in a field of wheat means that there is no wheat.

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43

Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

Edited August 24, 2004 by Berkana

[Guest shadow2b]

-JOHN.10:vss.13.Thru.18-------

-The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am

-the good shepherd, and know my sheep,and am known of mine. As the Father

-knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.-

-And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and

-they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

-Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take

-it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to

-lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I

-received of my Father

-The "One-Fold" would come into being {i.e.JEW & Gentile}After the Death--Burial & Resurrection of JESUS----

[Guest Berkana]

The Consent of the Fathers

Often times, the Roman Catholic Church will invoke the unanimous consent of the church fathers; how many people actually call their bluff?

I see that the writings of the church father Augustine has been selectively invoked. Let's see what else he wrote (FYI, his name is pronounced "AuGUStin", not "AUGusteen"):

St. Augustine

Because she was not the mother of his divinity, and the miracle she was asking for had to be worked through his divinity [referring to John 2], he answered her in this way: "What claim have you on me? But lest you think I do not recognize you as mother, I add that my hour has not yet arrived. Then shall I recognize you when the weakness you bore has begin its hour hanging on the cross." [That is when] he gives the mother into his disciple's care. Dying ahead of the mother, to rise before the mother, he, as a human, gives another human th care of the human from whom he drew his humanity. [1]

As you can see, even Augustine (who is a doctor of the Catholic Church--one whose theological writings are considered authoritative for the determination of Catholic doctrine) teaches that Mary is the mother of Jesus' human frailty and weakness, not His divine strength and majesty. This is in stark contradiction to the "mother of God" rhetoric of the Papal Encyclical Redemptoris Mater, that somehow Mary's "powerful intercession" as Jesus' mother forced Jesus to perform a miracle.

And guess what? This is not the only place where the Catholic Church's invocation of the Church Fathers and the "faith of the early church" is selective and shows a distorted perspective on church history. I challenge everyone here to behold some of what the Roman Catholic Church would rather not point out about the teachings of the Church Fathers:

The Consent of the Fathers: the Authority of Scripture

The Consent of the Fathers: the Rock and the Keys

If this characterizes the head of the household, how much more the members of his household!

_________________________________________

Sources

[1] Augustine, Explaining John's Gospel 8.9, as quoted by Gary Willis in his book Papal Sin: Structures of Deceit.

(Willis, Gary. Papal Sin. Doubleday, New York. 2000. p.207-208)

Edited August 24, 2004 by Berkana

[Yahsway]

Great post and info! I especially like the info on the Rock and the Keys!

[Adstar]

Great thread It is so wonderful to see people bringing to light the abomination that is the catholic church :il: You not only reveal evil but you bring warning to those new in their walk in Jesus

All praise The Ancient Of Days

[BobTriez]

So where does Mary fit into the equation then ?

ummm...she was CHOSEN BY GOD to be the Mother of HIS BEGOTTEN SON (i.e. HIMSELF)...and ALL NATIONS SHALL CALL HER BLESSED.

Where does she fit into your 'equation'? :il:

She doesn't.

[Botz]

ServingHim...some really great posts here...I have been reading and learning so much about 'Catholicism', including the links you gave several days ago which proved to be 'wheels within wheels', as they kept linking to other information...all very interesting but it has been an education for me to follow this thread and weigh up the various pros and cons that have been thrown around...

So far as I have been weighing things and comparing various teachings I can see some interesting ideas that the Catholic Church teaches that have a solid foundation in Church History and the writings of some revered men of G-d..such as the Assumption of Mary...Others have tip-toed into the realms of biblical fantasy as far as I can tell and often have a righteous and a moral story but are far removed from either documented historical or biblical evidence and yet they become treasured doctrine and defended dogma....much like some of the content of the various Rabbinical writings..and to which I might add the 'Apocrypha.

I certainly had no idea that according to Catholic doctrine my relationship with the L-rd Jesus Christ is counted as worthless because I am outside the Catholic fold and in so many words...a pagan or heretic. Whereas I might find much Catholic doctrine baffling or unbiblical I do not dare say that any who have a saving faith in the L-rd Jesus are not really Christians and I embrace them as my fellow Believers...I just believe they are rather misled about certain issues.

Anyway this thread which is ostensibly about Mary continues to be a real eye-opener to me and I am glad you have stuck around even when some heavier expressions of discontent get thrown your way. Be blessed. :hug:

[ServingHim]

guess i'll accept that as your answer to my question.

for the record, let's put that in context.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

thanks for those, ladyc!

Peter has the Keys of Authority over the Earthly Kingdom, the Church

2 Sam. 7:16; Psalm 89:3-4; 1 Chron.17:12,14 - God promises to establish the Davidic kingdom forever on earth.

Matt. 1:1 - Matthew clearly establishes this tie of David to Jesus. Jesus is the new King of the new House of David, and the King will assign a chief steward to rule over the house while the King is in heaven.

Luke 1:32 - the archangel Gabriel announces to Mary that her Son would be given "the throne of His father David."

Matt. 16:19 - Jesus gives Peter the "keys of the kingdom of heaven." While most Protestants argue that the kingdom of heaven Jesus was talking about is the eternal state of glory (as if Peter is up in heaven letting people in), the kingdom of heaven Jesus is speaking of actually refers to the Church on earth. In using the term "keys," Jesus was referencing Isaiah 22 (which is the only place in the Bible where keys are used in the context of a kingdom).

Isaiah 22:22 - in the old Davidic kingdom, the representative (the chief steward or Prime Minister) of the King held the keys. Jesus gives Peter these keys to His earthly kingdom, the Church. This representative has decision-making authority over the people - when he shuts, no one opens. See also Job 12:14.

Rev. 1:18; 3:7; 9:1; 20:1 - Jesus' "keys" undeniably represent authority. By using the word "keys," Jesus gives Peter authority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was not seriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant reformation 1,500 years later.

Matt. 16:19 - whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This "binding and loosing" authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish "halakah," or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves. Peter's "keys" fit into the "gates" of Hades which represent pastoral authority over souls.

Matt. 23:2-4 - the "binding and loosing" terminology used by Jesus was understood by the Jewish people. For example, the Pharisees "bind" heavy burdens but won't move ("loose") them with their fingers. Peter and the apostles have the new binding and loosing authority over the Church of the New Covenant.

Matt. 13:24-52 -Jesus comparing the kingdom of heaven to a field, a mustard seed, leaven, and a net demonstrate that the kingdom Jesus is talking about is the universal Church on earth, not the eternal state of glory. Therefore, the keys to the "kingdom of heaven" refers to the authority over the earthly Church.

Matt. 25:1-2 - Jesus comparing the kingdom of heaven to ten maidens, five of whom were foolish, further shows that the kingdom is the Church on earth. This kingdom cannot refer to the heavenly kingdom because there are no fools in heaven!

Mark 4:26-32 - again, the "kingdom of God" is like the seed which grows and develops. The heavenly kingdom is eternal, so the kingdom to which Peter holds the keys of authority is the earthly Church.

Luke 9:27 - Jesus says that there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the "kingdom of God." This kingdom refers to the earthly kingdom of Christ, which Jesus established by His death and resurrection on earth.

Luke 13:19-20 - again, Jesus says the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed which grew into a tree. This refers to the earthly Church which develops over time, from an acorn to an oak tree (not the heavenly state of glory which is boundless and infinite).

Matt 12:28; Mark 1:15; Luke 11:20; 17:21 - these verses provide more examples of the "kingdom of God" as the kingdom on earth which is in our midst.

1 Chron. 28:5 - Solomon sits on the throne of the kingdom of the Lord. This shows that the "kingdom of God" usually means an earthly kingdom.

1 Chron. 29:23 - Solomon sits on the throne of the Lord as king in place of King David. The throne of God refers to the earthly kingdom.

Matt. 16:19 - Peter holds keys to this new Davidic kingdom and rules while the real King of David (Jesus) is in heaven.

Luke 12:41-42 - when Peter asks Jesus if the parable of the master and the kingdom was meant just for the apostles or for all people, Jesus rhetorically confirms to Peter that Peter is the chief steward over the Master's household of God. "Who then, (Peter) is that faithful and wise steward whom his master will make ruler over His household..?"

Ezek. 37:24-25 - David shall be king over them forever and they will have one shepherd. Jesus is our King, and Peter is our earthly shepherd.

verses 17 and 18 are not saying the church is above scripture. not in any way, shape or form. scripture is the final authority. this passage is referring to the settlement of disputes.

you are right...they are not 'above' anyone else, but the church DOES HAVE AUTHORITY over other in teaching, given by Christ HImself.

furthermore there is nothing about the church being mystical. the church is the body of Christ, of which we are ALL members, you, me, bob, etc. God's church is a body of believers, not an institution.

body of believers believing exactly what? Many believe in God...Jews in fact believe in God...so do Mormons, and JW, et al...

The Church is Visible and One

Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus' oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

John 17:9-26 - Jesus' prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.

Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.

1 Cor. 1:10 - Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean "invisible" unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.

Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.

Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.

Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.

Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.

Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.

Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations?

Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.

1 Tim. 6:4 - Paul warns about those who seek controversy and disputes about words. There must be a universal authority to appeal to who can trace its authority back to Christ.

2 Tim. 2:14 - do not dispute about words which only ruin the hearers. Two-thousand years of doctrinal unity is a sign of Christ's Church.

2 Tim. 4:3 - this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God. It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose. We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ's teachings which He gives us through His Church.

Rev. 7:9 - the heavenly kingdom is filled with those from every nation and from all tribes, peoples and tongues. This is "catholic," which means universal.

1 Peter 3:8 - Peter charges us to have unity of spirit. This is impossible unless there is a central teaching authority given to us by God.

Gen. 12:2-3 - since Abram God said all the families of the earth shall be blessed. This family unity is fulfilled only in the Catholic Church.

Dan. 7:14 - Daniel prophesies that all peoples, nations and languages shall serve His kingdom. Again, this catholicity is only found in the Catholic Church.

1 Cor. 14:33 - God cannot be the author of the Protestant confusion. Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church claims and proves to be Christ's Church.

Romans 12

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Corinthians 10

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

1 Corinthians 12

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

true!!!! so why does everyone say then that the ONE, UNITED, 'UNIVERSAL' Church is a 'cult'?!?!?! :oww:

i found a very interesting article that defines the origions of the "church"... my interest was captured by where the word "church" comes from.

II. Beginning Marks

A. Name. The English term "church" is supposed to be a derivative of the Greek term kuriakos, meaning "of or belonging to the Lord." It is used to translate the Greek term ekklesia, which occurs 115 times in the New Testament, with all but four occurrences (Acts 7:38; 19:32,39,41) referring to God's people of the new covenant. Ekklesia is a compound formed from the Greek preposition ek (meaning "out of'" and the Greek noun klesis (meaning "a calling"). Hence, the "church" is literally "that which is called out of the realm of sin and darkness into the light and kingdom of Jesus Christ (Col. 1:13; II Thess. 2:14). It is noteworthy that Jesus used the term "church" only three times in two different passages, but His usage of the term illustrates the two basic senses in which it is used in the New Testament. When He said, "I will build My church" (Matt. 16:18), He used the term in the universal sense, including all of His disciples throughout the world. When He said that differences between brethren should ultimately be taken to the church (Matt. 18:15-17), He used the term in the local sense, referring to a body of His disciples within a particular geographical area who band together for purposes of work and worship. Sometimes modifying phrases (I Cor. 1:2; Rom. 16:16), or different terms (I Cor. 3:16; Eph. 1:22,23; Col. 1:13), are used in reference to the church to emphasize different aspects of it.

thank you for that ...

I thought THIS article was interesting on what 'church means' as well...

AN UNBROKEN HISTORY

Jesus said his Church would be "the light of the world." He then noted that "a city set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today

[GoodSamaritan]

Mary was as just as in need of a Savior as we all are!

Ah, another Catholic shooting gallery, lovely! Funny but arguments such as the one made about Mary needing a savior as well just shows how little you know about Catholic teaching regarding her Immaculate Conception. Did ya know that the Church also says that She required salvation from Her Son?

If anyone wishes to discuss the issues fully and respectfully, PM me and we can do this. This thread will soon degenerate into anti-Catholic attacks not even pertaining to doctrine as they always do around here. PM me to discuss the issues and we can then create a thread from the discussion that will hopefully teach rather than insult. God Bless and God be with you!

GS