The transfiguration

[johnP]

The transfiguration is a representation of Jesus fulfilling the law and the prophets, all three were there until God spoke and then the law and the prophets disappeard and when the disciples looked up they saw no one but Jesus. He stands alone, fulfilling the law and the prophets.

The transfiguration is a representation...

This should read, 'The transfiguration is a representation I think...' because it does not say that explicitly? What exactly is a representation? A reproduction or likeness? But you can't have a reproduction before the reality can you?

fulfilling the law and the prophets

The law and the prophets had not yet been fulfilled.

the law and the prophets disappeard

But they have not have they? Are you placing grace above the law? This seems wrong because God's Love is not above His Justice. God is One.

Whad'yer fink?

Dad Ernie.

I am always happy to discuss my beliefs, and often are willing just to "agree to disagree"

We are not here to convince each other just have a good time arguing. Where's the fun in agreeing with each other? We'd be taping the table instead of these keys wouldn't we?

Anyway that is tolerance and tolerance is love and love never fails.

That is an impressively long reply Dad Ernie and I shall look into it tomorrow. I was going to say, Check your translation it is in error I think. But I see that you have got doxa there so I will leave that for now. This I take it is only the AV rendering?

Anyway;

We carried on the conversation me and my mate.

I know that this is opposed by you but I thought it good enough to air.

Moses and Elijah were national hero's. Held in the highest esteem by the people of Israel.

Both acted in the special ways that only God can act.

For instance. Moses was made to be as God to Pharaoh, Ex 4:16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.

Elijah also acted like Jesus when He rised the child to life.

1 Kings 17:23 Elijah picked up the child and carried him down from the room into the house. He gave him to his mother...

Lk 7:15 The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother.

The similarity is striking but Elijah had to perform some tricks before God healed the kid but all Jesus does is command.

It would be hard for the Jews to accept someone who presumed to be the one that Moses spoke of. They would have to drop their national hero's or at least adopt another one. Look at Peter reaction. They were held in the highest esteem, where would their national identity be if they threw it away on this fellow? Or as Peter thought, they were three of a kind.

But Jesus is not comparable to these two in any way. He shone around them, showing His superiority to them. Proving to the witnesses, Peter and company, and those they spoke to, that they had seen Jesus with those two great men and He, Jesus, shone like the sun and it reflected off Moses and Elijah.

You see He is our national Hero isnt He and the disciples would have spoken to the Jews in this knowledge. The two great men only reflected the glory of the One that they were being told about. Inertia caused by the Jews regard for their esteemed men of God. That had to be overcome and Peter with the Holy Spirit would convince the Jews with this story. They were reassured that it was safe to let go of these men of God because He was here.

Jesus will not look like the rest of us on the Day of Resurrection because Jesus is God and God will not yield His glory to another. Isa 48:11

Why not;

"How can I let myself be defamed?" He says.

Jesus with the same glory as us defames Him.

John 17:24. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

On Judgement Day Jesus will not look like us. He will be a man but He will look like God and He will look like God to the furthest extent as is safe for us because He wants to reveal His glory and our glory will be the reflection of that. As it always will be.

We are talking about glory and that can't be bad 'a'?

johnp

[ServingHim]

hey John...love those California plates...sorry, had to say that. Carry on!

[larryt]

I think it's becaues they represent the triune God, in a sense. Moses represents the law, Elijah represents the prophets.

Bingo!

Moses represents the Law and Elijah represents the Prophets. In the Lord's incarnation all authority was transferred to Him. Therefore, when they desired to contruct altars to them, the Father spoke and said, This is my Son, the Beloved, hear Him."

Amen and amen.

[Jacqueline]

This may be way out there, but I believe Moses was one of them because he prayed to God to get to the promise land and because of his anger he wasn't allowed when they finally entered. However God didn't forget his prayer and this was His way of answering it. Even if it was after his death.

God never ever forget our prayers. It may not be answered when we want them to be, but it will be answered in the Lords timing.

God Bless

Jacqueline

[johnP]

Hello Dad Ernie.

A gulf exists between our beliefs.

I fail to see any substantiation in this post that causes me to change my mind.

Not wanting to dismiss it I will read it through some more.

For now I will deal with some of the points in a disjointed way if you don't mind.

NIV.

Luke 9:29-32 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, 31 appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. 32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him.

Matt 17:3 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

The concentration in Matthew is on Jesus. No mention is made of the other two until after the transfiguration of Jesus. The disciples were very sleepy.

It would not be possible without more evidence to prove that the shining of the two was proceeding from them. Moses was 'irradiated' before in the desert and carried that with him for a while.

I reject the idea that they, Moses and Elijah, shone from within but believe they were seen by the light that was reflected off them.

The point is that we cannot transition from earth to heaven unless we die or are changed to be like Jesus. 1 Cor 15 is critical in understanding this. If Elijah & Enoch went to HEAVEN, then they absolutely were "changed", even as we shall be changed at the resurrection/rapture.

I think that this change is a spiritual not a physical change.

2) TIME only has reference to THIS creation

You say! Logic, because no other source is available, will say that if there is no time nothing happens. That is my logic and I use it to weaken the Big Bang theory. If you say that something can happen without time then how? It goes against reason and nature. If it is true then it remains a guess does it not.

1 Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

(A matter of interest. Is the woman's glory the same word as the men's?)

1 Cor 15:40-41 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Of a truth the creation is glorious in it's diversity.

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

If Elijah and Moses were glorified why not these?

How do you handle Heb 11:39-40 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect?

And;

Heb 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect

Time exists in Heaven because, Rev 6:11, they ask how long they must wait.

So;

Time = the interval between any two separate physical events.

Not spiritual?

Drop a pencil and it falls to the floor. The interval between the pencil falling and hitting the floor takes time. If there is no time then nothing happens.

Time gives the oppotunity for things to happen. Like space give the oppotunity for things to be.

I think that time is part of God's being as is His life.

Without time life cannot exist. There is only time or no time, is there an alternative?

Luke 10:17-18 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

This just has the meaning that Christ is to triumph over Satan by using us.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Some more verses regarding TIME in relation to the SUN

All these verses I agree with. They speak of God's power over creation. We are not disputing what He done just how He did it.

because he knoweth that he hath but a short time

Then time has relevance then to the spirits?

johnp

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings JohnP,

because he knoweth that he hath but a short time

Then time has relevance then to the spirits?

Only as they operate within the "creation".

Time gives the oppotunity for things to happen. Like space give the oppotunity for things to be.

I think that time is part of God's being as is His life.

Without time life cannot exist. There is only time or no time, is there an alternative?

I think this is where you are not getting it. There IS NO SPACE/TIME/MATTER with God. Before the creation there was none of these. I have shown that the creation has a beginning AND an end. Eternity DOES NOT. God IS, ALWAYS WAS, AND EVER SHALL BE. He can say "I AM" because He is the "self-existent, eternal ONE". No one can claim that but Him. What do you think God meant when He said: "The evening and the morning was the 1st Day, or the 2nd day, etc.?

Yet God existed BEFORE the VERY FIRST DAY. Please explain that. Please ALSO explain how God can exist BEFORE THE BEGINNING.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[johnP]

Hello Dad Ernie.

Please tell me if this is what you think is right.

The creation;

This is everything that God has created. It did not exist until God created it.

Time, space and matter including all life that dwells there. This is our place.

The spiritual realm including a place called Heaven and Hell and all spirit life that dwells there.

God always has been and always will be.

A day is the length of time it takes the earth to rotate once on it's axis.

johnp

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings JohnP

Please tell me if this is what you think is right.

The creation;

This is everything that God has created. It did not exist until God created it.

Time, space and matter including all life that dwells there. This is our place.

God always has been and always will be.

A day is the length of time it takes the earth to rotate once on it's axis.

I don't see any hidden meanings in the above, so yes, you are right.

The spiritual realm including a place called Heaven and Hell and all spirit life that dwells there.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

There is a "spiritual realm" and there is a "natural" realm. At one point in time, (I think it might coincide with the days of creation), all the angels were created to inhabit the "spiritual realm" wherein God also resides and has forever.

Does that answer your question?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[johnP]

Hello Dad Ernie.

I don't see any hidden meanings in the above, so yes, you are right.

A very wise proceedure.

Does that answer your question?

It does but to a degree thank you very much.

One point please.

My question.

Then time has relevance then to the spirits?

Your answer.

Only as they operate within the "creation".

Yet you did not answer or I have not understood the answer about the spiritual realm. Is that part of creation?

It's to do with; And the spirits under the alter are asking how long. Rev 6:10.

Which implies time in the spirit realm.

I'm not trying to catch you out I just want to know what you think.

One more?

Bearing in mind 2 Chron 2:6 But who is able to build a temple for him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain him? Who then am I to build a temple for him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before him?

God existed before Heaven was created is correct?

Thanks Dad Ernie.

johnp