Spin off From "IS Jesus God" thread in Doctrinal

[A Muslim]

Who was Jesus' Father?

You cannot say He had "no" father.

The Y chromosome and matching 22 chromosomes had to come from somewhere.

Jesus (Peace be upon him) had no father as Adam had neither a father nor a mother and as Eve had no mother. So where are the X and Y chromosomes for Adam and Y chromosomes for Eve? Miracles cannot be interpreted scientifically as they are a violation to science in themselves otherwise they won't have been miracles.

I have the question now, if you believe Jesus had a father, whom you believe to be God of course, and he has a mother who was Mary, how was Jesus begotten from his father and his mother?

Would you provide me with quotes of other people who have said, "Follow me," to mean, "Follow my teaching?"

Of course, God told us in the Quran about Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him):

YUSUFALI: Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

No one understood that we follow him in every place he goes whether he goes home or to the toilet or anywhere, or after he dies that we go with him in his tomb, but to follow his teachings, what he said and what he did, and we never said that this means he is God.

[Dog House Bill]

Mat 10:11 "And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city.

Mat 10:12 "As you enter the house, give it your greeting.

Mat 10:13 "If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.

Mat 10:14 "Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

Mat 10:15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

These are the words of Jesus on how we Christians are to treat those who reject Him. Notice that He, Jesus, does NOT tell His followers to murder them like your teacher does. We Christians are to leave you to your fallacy and pray that you may one day receive Jesus as savior BEFORE you die at the appointed time.

Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Heb 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

[Ovedya]

Who was Jesus' Father?

You cannot say He had "no" father.

The Y chromosome and matching 22 chromosomes had to come from somewhere.

Jesus (Peace be upon him) had no father as Adam had neither a father nor a mother and as Eve had no mother. So where are the X and Y chromosomes for Adam and Y chromosomes for Eve? Miracles cannot be interpreted scientifically as they are a violation to science in themselves otherwise they won't have been miracles.

I have the question now, if you believe Jesus had a father, whom you believe to be God of course, and he has a mother who was Mary, how was Jesus begotten from his father and his mother?

Would you provide me with quotes of other people who have said, "Follow me," to mean, "Follow my teaching?"

Of course, God told us in the Quran about Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him):

YUSUFALI: Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

No one understood that we follow him in every place he goes whether he goes home or to the toilet or anywhere, or after he dies that we go with him in his tomb, but to follow his teachings, what he said and what he did, and we never said that this means he is God.

Son of Ishmael: Jesus is the son of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob according to the flesh. He is the Son of God according to the Spirit. He is God - the entire God - as the Scriptures affirm. The Quran is false.

[Dog House Bill]

here are the references from the qu`ran concerning treatment of non-muslims.

191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. Sura 002.

193. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. Sura 002

The Koran The Holy Qur'an Electronic Text Center, University of Virginia Library.

[Guest]

Of course, God told us in the Quran about Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him):

YUSUFALI: Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

No one understood that we follow him in every place he goes whether he goes home or to the toilet or anywhere, or after he dies that we go with him in his tomb, but to follow his teachings, what he said and what he did, and we never said that this means he is God.

Truth

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22

To Tell

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Jesus Is

Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Isaiah 49:7

LORD

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 55:5

Praise His Holy Name

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:8-9

>>>>>()<<<<<

Believe And Live

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

Don't And You Won't

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

Your Choice

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Love, Joe

[Fez]

Behold, We sent IT

So tell me, does It mean part of? Or the whole, in Arabic?

[nChrist]

Jesus Christ is God - One with God The Father and God The Holy Spirit - the Eternal Godhead - otherwise known as the Holy Trinity. They are three Holy and Unique Deities - yet one. To illustrate:

1st Person of the Holy Trinity - God The Father

2nd Person of the Holy Trinity - God The Son (Jesus Christ, The Word)

3rd Person of the Holy Trinity - God The Holy Spirit

Three Unique and Holy Deities - Yet One.

__________

If one denies that Jesus Christ is God, one also denies God The Father and is Anti-Christ.

Matthew 10:32-33 KJV Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

One of the easiest ways to identify a false religion and cult is that they deny Jesus Christ is God. God The Son (Jesus Christ) became manifest in the flesh to die on the cross for the sins of mankind. Contrary to the teachings of false religions, Jesus Christ did die, but He arose from the dead on the third day. Jesus Christ was God The Son before, during, and after His earthly ministry. False prophets and false religions teach otherwise. Some of the worst false religions plagiarize portions of the Holy Bible and make up the rest for their false religion. They don't worship the only True and Living God, rather a false god with a little "g" who never had any life to begin with.

This portion of Scripture is talking about Jesus Christ (The Word, God The Son, The Creator):

John 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus Christ was with God and was God - The Creator. Jesus Christ was not just a man or a prophet, rather the Eternal God The Son.

John 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Philippians 2:5-11 KJV Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus Christ was crucified because He claimed to be God. He was God. One can choose to accept or reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, very God. He is the only way to Salvation. Those who reject him will be judged for Eternal Condemnation to the fires of hell at the Great White Throne Judgment.

John 3:16-18 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 10:8-10 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Those who teach otherwise are teaching a false gospel and are Anti-Christ. There is no way to twist and distort the Scriptures of the Holy Bible far enough to mean anything else. However, some try, and they usually have their own man-made bible with a little "b" to support their false teachings. Those who deny Jesus Christ as God are much like those who had Jesus Christ crucified. It's just this simple.

John 14:6-7 KJV Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Jesus Christ is God - One with God The Father and God The Holy Spirit. Denying this absolute reality does not change it.

[A Muslim]

Muslim, you are completely missing the point of what God is saying. You are parsing over a mode of expression and over-literalizing it. God's point is that unlike man, He does not lie and does not go back on His Word. That is the central idea of the verse. Anyone who is willing to be honest about even a cursory reading of it can see that.

Yes, what you are saying is the main point, but there are other sub points and these sub points tell that God is neither a man nor the son of man, oterwise the verse wouldn't have mentioned these 2 examples, just it would have said God neither lies nor repents.

That is not true. The use of "sons of God" like all expressions are nuanced in Hebrew. The context is easy enough to see.

And the context is also enough to see that Jesus being called " the son of God" doesn't mean his equality with God and I gave examples about that before. You said that saying son of means equality, now I gave you verses calling others as sons of God, you need to prove that it doesn't denote equality concerning these people but it does concerning Jesus.

The term "sons of God" as it is used in by Jesus in the sermon on the mount pertains to those who like "sons" emulate God. They, unlike those who sow discord, are acting in a way that is becoming of those who claim to be followers of God.

So when they emulated God, does this mean they are gods? Also it wasn't just the case of that point, but Jesus generally said that God is their father:

Mat 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Messiah.

So if we applied what you say, this will mean that all believers are equal to God.

Jesus' enemies were certainly not unbaised, but their response to Jesus shows that Jesus was not unambiguous about His claim to be God. They did not misunderstand Him.

As you agree with me that their enemies were biased, then they cannot be a credible source to take information from, as their aim was to prove Jesus' wrong, and that's why they accused him of blasphemy. So they are not a credible source to prove Jesus' deity, the credible source is how Jesus' responded to what they said, he clearly refuted them in John 10.

Actually, the virgin birth has everything to do with Him being God. Jesus did not have a earthly biological father, as Mary was a virgin. That means that Jesus was of divine origin.

So this means that Eve also has a divine origin and Adam has a double divine origin!!

Luke tells us that He will be the Son of the Most High (another way of saying "God").

Remember Psalm 82:6, so these judges were also told to be Gods? It's the same exact expression.

His Kingdom will be eternal. Luke tells us that Jesus is a King, The Son of God and will reign on the throne of David and will have an eternal kingdom. That is far, far more than what you are willing to make room for.

Well, the OT said that David would have an eternal kingdom, that doesn't make him God:

2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

As for Paul, he is our greatest theologian of Christianity and His letters are built on the teachings of Jesus. Paul more than anyone else in His day or the centuries to come correctly related the teachings of Jesus. Paul was taught personally by Jesus for about three years.

Well, Paul came after Jesus died and he put the first step to spoil Jesus' teachings although it was spoiled much more after him, but although he made Jesus a higher rank than mere men, he made him inferior to God.

[A Muslim]

Immanuel is not His Name. It is His title. Imimanuael being ascribed to Jesus as "God with us" indicates Jesus' deity.

I think the verse says his name not his title.

You are not reading the verse close enough. He says two things about Jesus. He says that He is to be the ruler of God's people, Israel. Secondly, He says that His goings forth are from everlasting. In Hebrew, it is the word "olam" which indicates the eternal past, not simply from ancient times.

As for your first point, it doesn't imply that Jesus is God at all as many people ruled Israel. As for the second, even if it meant eternal past, the verse doesn't say and he is from eternal past, but his origin meaning that he wasn't present the way he is in the eternal past but just his origin which seems to be present in God's predestination as Paul told about himself to be chosen from the beginning of the world.

You don't see it, because you don't understand the passage. It says that YHVH will come to His temple and that He will sit as a judge of the people, using the metaphor of a refiner's fire.

Well, to judge the people that doesn't mean that he is God, where did the verse say YHVH?The word used here is adoni which is master:

Mal 3:1 Behold,H2009 I will sendH7971 my messenger,H4397 and he shall prepareH6437 the wayH1870 beforeH6440 me: and the Lord,H113 whomH834 yeH859 seek,H1245 shall suddenlyH6597 comeH935 toH413 his temple,H1964 even the messengerH4397 of the covenant,H1285 whomH834 yeH859 delightH2655 in: behold,H2009 he shall come,H935 saithH559 the LORDH3068 of hosts.H6635

H113

אדן אדון

'âdôn 'âdôn

aw-done', aw-done'

From an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, that is, controller (human or divine): - lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with “Adoni-”.

Strong's Bible Dictionary

The title "The Branch" is a well-known Messianic title. It refers to Jesus on His throne. There are other places in the Bible that tell us that Jesus' reign is eternal.

Being the Messiah has nothing to do with being God. As for the eternal kingdom, I think you need to say David is God as well.

Jesus' own claims to have the power to forgive sins, to have personal power over death, and the fact that Jesus never did anything except in His own Name. Unlike Jesus' followers that had to say, "In the name of Jesus..." before peforming miracles, Jesus did not have to invoke the Father's Name.

He already said that he took everything from the Father:

Luke 10:22 “All things have been committed to me by my Father.

So this includes the power to forgive sins, people evn undrstood that this is from God not from Jesus himself:

Mat 9:8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.

Jesus demonstrates personal power over death and over sin. That is evidence of His deity. Yet Jesus hungered, thirsted, was fatigued, slept, prayed, demonstrates His Deity.

The first is not a proof that he is God and we talked much about that. Where did Jesus say that he has two natures? He never said it, neither did he say that he is God. All what you are doing is that you are manipulating with verses to get a conclusion that Jesus had both natures. Your belief is not sound at all to be a basic belief.

It is true, so I said nothing wrong. Your prophet is dead. Our Savior is alive and is seated at the right hand of God the Father. Jesus is not a mere prophet. He is far, far greater than a prophet. Your dead prophet has nothing to do with our God.

I know you said nothing wrong. I am talking about the expression itself as I saw it a kind of insult even if you didn't mean it. I never said that prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is God so that he must be alive to worship him. He was a prophet sent by God, accomplished his mission and died as all other prophets, Jesus (Peace be upon him) is alive now, but he will die after his second coming. So actually Jesus (Peace be upon him) is a prophet as the Bible itself says, and till now I haven't seen a proof that he is God.

No, it means that Jesus imparts eternal life. It means exactly what I said it means. Jesus literally gives people the life of God to dwell within them in the person of His Holy Spirit.

Really, so why do Christians die?

The Father is the ONLY God. Jesus is the ONLY God and the Holy Spirit is the ONLY God. "God" refers to being or essence. There is ONLY one God, YHVH. But this God is comprised of three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They share the same the being, albeit they are separate personages, so there is no problem.

Well, nowhere did Jesus say that he or the Holy Spirit are the ONLY God, he said it concerning the Father ONLY, and he made a clear distiction between him and the Father in the same verse. As Jesus is talking to the Father then he is talking to the person of the Father neither to the Son nor to the HS, so he is actually excluding himself from being God as mentioned in many other verses telling that he is inferior to the Father:

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Jesus is clearly saying that the Father is his God, and Isaiah 42 whom you believe it to be referring to Jesus tells the same:

1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight;

So the Father is Jesus' God and Jesus is God's servant, Jesus even tells that the Father is greater than him, meaning he could never be God as he is inferior to the Father who is the ONLY God:

John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Edited December 3, 2010 by A Muslim

[A Muslim]

I am not insulting God at all. Rather, I am simply pointing out that Jesus emptied Himself voluntarily of some divine perogatives prior to taking on flesh. That explains why lived within the confines of certain limitations. Jesus was also not omnipresent while on earth. He was confined to being in only one place at a time.

I still need the evidence where Jesus said what you are saying about him. Secondly, either he was omiscent or not as you are contradicting yourself here, you clearly say here that he emptied himself of divine perogatives because he didn't know the hour, but when he knew how people think, this became a divine attribute, you are tailoring the verses according to what your belief says, that made you not just talking with no evidence, but also contradicting yourself. Now if he knew what people think then he didn't know the hour, that won't make him omniscent, so your point fails to stand against scriptures.

Accept that the Bible does not say that the Father told Jesus was they were thinking. It simply tells us that Jesus was able to read their thoughts. It gives no credit to the Father for His ability to do so. So you are simply working from conjecture.

Well, I have elaborated above that Jesus took everything from the Father. Besides, the original case for all prophets that they didn't perform miracles by themselves, but through God, any violation to this rule needs evidence, and as you are the one who support the violation, you are the one asked to give evidence, so actually you are the one who have been working from conjecture not me.

So your exmaple doesn't really measure up to what Jesus does. We witness to people, but is Jesus who does the saving, because only God can save us from our sins.

We need to talk about Jesus whether he really died for or sins or not, this may need a separate thread. You may see my point here if you like:

http://sites.google.com/site/christismuslim/didhedieforus

שאר ישוב שאר יעקב אל אל גבור

As you can see, there is no definite article before El Gibbor.

Well, I didn't claim to know Hebrew, so I see what translations give and there is a diversity among translations between Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 10:22, as in most translations, there is no the in 9:6, while there is the in 10:22. In the Arabic translation, 9:6 the word God is "elah" which can be god or God, while in 10:22, the word God is "Allah" which is referred to God only. If this diversity is among Christian translators, how could I accept that this verse points that the Messiah is God?

My point is that even though the translations don't always reflect the latest and best scholarship, the knowledge is still accessible so simply appealing to translations as you have done is a useless exercize.

I don't know Hebrew, so I am referreing to translations and dictionaries, why should I assume that all translators got it wrong and you got it right?