Two Questions For Unbelievers

[Guest Bob Down]

Source criticism is highly subjective and is based the notion that the authors are anonymous, hence the references to JEDP and Q.

Source criticism is far from being objective and ignores the plain statements of the text which date themselves and give plenty of internal evidence as to their audience and authorship. Higher Crticism simply tries to do end run around the divine origin of Scripture. If the Bible is product of anonymous human authors, it removes accountability for sin before a holy God. Thta is ultimately the motivation behind attempting to read God out of the Scripture the way higher critics do. They turn interpretation on its head and the Bible suddenly becomes servant to the reader and instead of interpretation of Scripture, we are left with a view that makes the Bible a smorgasboard from which a person can pick and choose according to their taste.

I have only a layman's interest in higher criticism - my guess is that you too, are a layman in that area - sort of equals aren't we?

By the way I am not a defender of higher criticism. It was higher criticism that piqued my interest in bible study, but that's as far as it goes. I don't read the technical work done by the scholars, but wait instead for the details to be published in paperback.

As you suggest in your last sentence, different scholars have reached different conclusions, and while that may irk some people, I find it quite interesting - the search for truth continues, and I am pleased to be sitting on the sidelines, watching as the drama unfolds. You seem to have already found the truth, but not all of us have that sort of confidence and some of us (me for example) are prepared to say, "I'm not quite sure..."

Would you like to talk about Psalm 53 and Matthew 5:22 or shall we give up on that one?

[Guest shiloh357]

I have only a layman's interest in higher criticism - my guess is that you too, are a layman in that area - sort of equals aren't we?

No, I am not a layman, and no we are not equqls. I am a student of Scripture and far more than a layman's interest/knowledge of Scripture.

As you suggest in your last sentence, different scholars have reached different conclusions, and while that may irk some people, I find it quite interesting

I wasn't talking about different conclusions. I was talking about the way higher criticism violates the rules of literary analysis.

Would you like to talk about Psalm 53 and Matthew 5:22 or shall we give up on that one?

I have already explained them and reposted it about five or six posts back, this morning. If you like you may respond to my explanation and we can go from there.

[Fraught]

Secondly, you are corrupt because of what you are not because of what you do. Everything you do in the context of being an unbeliever is inquity before God. You are incabable of pleasing God. Your best deeds on your best day are as filthy menstrual rags before God. You are born a sinner and you have a sentence of death hanging over your head. You are born separated from God and at enmity with Him. You are under the curse of His law and are going headlong down a path to eternal destruction unless you repent and receive Jesus as your Savior.

I have always enjoyed the hurly-burly of vigorous debate, but rarely have I encountered such vituperation in a single post. You seem to be lacking some of the "Christian love and tolerance" possessed by other members of this forum.

And what about the other members - do you agree with shiloh357 that I am,

* corrupt

* every thing I do is iniquity

* my best deeds on my best day are as filthy as menstrual rags

[That last insult is actually quite brilliant - like a dead fish in the moonlight, it both shines and stinks. I shall be quoting it on other forums for years to come.]

But seriously, am I expected to put up with responses like this on a regular basis? I can handle it, don't worry about that - but I am wondering if such zealotry is normal on this site, or is shiloh357 one of a kind?

I think you will find more agreement than not. When you do as the rest of us have done, look deeply inside yourself, you will find such corruption and ugliness as to take your breath away. When I understood what I was, when I stripped away all my rationalization, when I examined my true motives, yes I found those things to be true. And I have not found anyone who is different. So yes, I agree with Shiloh. You may take comfort in the fact that you are not the only one, but in the end, we are all 'alone' with ourselves, without God.

[Guest JacobLewis]

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. Psalms 53:1

Interesting that you quote a Psalmist who calls unbelievers fools, when Matthew (5:22) makes it clear that: "...whoever says 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire."

Is the Psalmist in hell do you think?

Just for the record, and despite what the Psalmist has written, I am not corrupt, and I have not done abominable iniquity. I am surprised that you are prepared to imply that perhaps I have. Would you care to elaborate?

First of all, the NT passage you cited is referring to a type of slander. It is not slander for the Psalmist to call an unbeliever a fool.

Secondly, you are corrupt because of what you are not because of what you do. Everything you do in the context of being an unbeliever is inquity before God. You are incabable of pleasing God. Your best deeds on your best day are as filthy menstrual rags before God. You are born a sinner and you have a sentence of death hanging over your head. You are born separated from God and at enmity with Him. You are under the curse of His law and are going headlong down a path to eternal destruction unless you repent and receive Jesus as your Savior.

That is the condition you are in. God loves you enough that He sent His Son to Jesus take upon Himself the penalties of your sin and to provide you with the free gift of eternal life. It is yours for the taking. If you choose continued separation from God, you will face the consequences for that choice.

Working under the impression that the God who sent his "only begotten son" to die for my sins, and to pay for the original sin, is the same God that blinked the universe into existence with His Will, does it not seem absurd that this great sacrifice is necessary?

If god chooses to forgive his creations for doing that which comes naturally to them, why is this terrific sacrifice necessary? Why are we indebted to the Son of God, an extension of God himself? Why not simply forgive and be done with it? Why is bloodshed a requirement?

Edited December 28, 2010 by JacobLewis

[Guest Bob Down]

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. Psalms 53:1

Interesting that you quote a Psalmist who calls unbelievers fools, when Matthew (5:22) makes it clear that: "...whoever says 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire."

Is the Psalmist in hell do you think?

[Guest]

Holy

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Hebrews 9:22

Blood

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things,

as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19

>>>>>()<<<<<

....Working under the impression that the God who sent his "only begotten son" to die for my sins, and to pay for the original sin, is the same God that blinked the universe into existence with His Will, does it not seem absurd that this great sacrifice is necessary?

If god chooses to forgive his creations for doing that which comes naturally to them, why is this terrific sacrifice necessary? Why are we indebted to the Son of God, an extension of God himself? Why not simply forgive and be done with it? Why is bloodshed a requirement?,,,,

The Same

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Almighty One

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. Deuteronomy 32:39-40

Who Hung On Calvary's Tree

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

Is The One Who Called The Worlds Into Existence

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John 1:9-10

And Yet He Calls

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

Come Sinner

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

Come

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

Love, Joe

[Guest Bob Down]

No, I am not a layman, and no we are not equqls. I am a student of Scripture and far more than a layman's interest/knowledge of Scripture.

Sorry about that - quite unfair of me to make assumptions about your knowledge of scripture.

Post #7

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. Psalms 53:1

Interesting that you quote a Psalmist who calls unbelievers fools, when Matthew (5:22) makes it clear that: "...whoever says 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire."

Is the Psalmist in hell do you think?

Post #10

First of all, the NT passage you cited is referring to a type of slander. It is not slander for the Psalmist to call an unbeliever a fool.

Post#26 (referring back to Post #10)

The first sentence answered the question about Psalm 53 and Matt. 5:22.

Post #33

I have already explained them and reposted it about five or six posts back, this morning. If you like you may respond to my explanation and we can go from there.

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good."

That text slanders every unbeliever who is not corrupt, has not done abominable iniquity, and has done good things, so I am still wondering, is the Psalmist in hell as Matthew 5:22 suggests he may be?

[Guest]

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good." Psalms 14:1

That text slanders every unbeliever who is not corrupt, has not done abominable iniquity, and has done good things, so I am still wondering, is the Psalmist in hell as Matthew 5:22 suggests he may be?

If I And All Men Say God Lies

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21

God Be True

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:3-4

See?

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:12-17

Love, Joe

[Hawkins]

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good."

That text slanders every unbeliever who is not corrupt, has not done abominable iniquity, and has done good things, so I am still wondering, is the Psalmist in hell as Matthew 5:22 suggests he may be?

First, "You fool" is a name calling action. While Psalm only generalize that it is foolish to disbelieve God.

Second,

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, Raca,[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, You fool! will be in danger of the fire of hell.

It seems that the verse is referring to cursing "brother or sister".

Matthew 25:40

The King will reply, Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

Matthew 25:45

He will reply, Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.

You can see here that Jesus and God treasure His sheep very much, cursing them may lead to consequences like the verse just following Mathhew 25:45.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Hawkins

[Guest JacobLewis]

Holy

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Hebrews 9:22

Blood

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things,

as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19

>>>>>()<<<<<

....Working under the impression that the God who sent his "only begotten son" to die for my sins, and to pay for the original sin, is the same God that blinked the universe into existence with His Will, does it not seem absurd that this great sacrifice is necessary?

If god chooses to forgive his creations for doing that which comes naturally to them, why is this terrific sacrifice necessary? Why are we indebted to the Son of God, an extension of God himself? Why not simply forgive and be done with it? Why is bloodshed a requirement?,,,,

The Same

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Almighty One

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. Deuteronomy 32:39-40

Who Hung On Calvary's Tree

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

Is The One Who Called The Worlds Into Existence

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John 1:9-10

And Yet He Calls

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

Come Sinner

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

Come

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

Love, Joe

Doesn't do it for me Joey.

Anyone else have a reasonable answer that isn't a direct quote from the book I'm refuting?

Why does God require bloodshed? How can this law that states bloodshed is required be imposed on the creator of everything?

It seems like a very dark and merciless being that would insist on blood and death.