Does a Good God Exist?

[other one]

Maybe the Spirit send them here for one last final attempt to get their attention. there have been atheists saved during discussions on this board.

Probably so, O.O. It's just curious to me how they come in sets. Maybe it's just coincidence.

Or maybe it's really just one person with two accounts, I've seen that happen in other places. Anyway I find it as interesting as do you.

[wyguy]

Thanks for taking the time to engage with me, by the way, I

[doubting_tommy]

Again, God is bound by His very nature to demand what is good, and to prohibit what is evil. His will is the reflection of the morality of His nature.

Hmm

[doubting_tommy]

Leading evolutionist Richard Dawkins said the passing on of our genes is the only reason we exist. And that if we believe we have any other purpose, we are kidding ourselves. Evolution doesn't/can't care what you happen to think your own purpose for life is. Read Dawkins' book, "The Selfish Gene."

I think there’s a difference between a ‘reason’ and a ‘purpose’ in this context. A reason explains something, like how our species propagates itself, but in order for something to have a ‘purpose’ you need an intentional agent as part of the explanation (like God, for example). I happen to believe that humans can give their lives meaning (with or without God), and if Dawkins disagrees well then I’ll just have to disagree with him.

But, if godless evolution is all there is, it doesn't make one bit of difference. All of your lofty plans for your life mean nothing to a pitiless, blind, accidental universe.

If God exists, then we are judged on how we live our lives here on earth, which suggests to me that God thinks our lives are worth living. If there was no God, I still think our lives would be worth living. The universe may be accidental, and our lives here may be without an external purpose, but our decisions are not accidental, the relationships we build and the experiences we have are not driven by chaos and randomness, but by our own wills and intentions. We are free to define our own lives, to decide on our own purposes, provided that we make these decisions within the context of the overall aim to follow Jesus’ message of loving one another, a message which is found in secular as well as religious philosophy.

Again, it just doesn't matter. From an evolutionary standpoint, love is just something to use to successfully pass on our genes. If we are to be true to our evolutionary nature, our best bet would be to kill our rivals to mates, and destroy the weak to guarantee access to what we need to survive.

That would be true if we have a moral obligation to pass on our genes, but I don’t believe that we do. Nature does not have intentions, it simply has functions. There is no normative force except that which is given by God or by a universal moral law (which is external to physical nature). From an evolutionary standpoint, love may be simply something to use to successfully pass on our genes, but why take that standpoint? Old people fall in love, younger infertile people fall in love, and gay people fall in love, so not all love arises in situations where genes will be passed on.

The words of Jesus make no difference in a reality without God.

Immanuel Kant developed one of the most influential philosophical theories of morality without relying on the existence of God (which is interesting, because he believed in God’s existence, but he thought that a system of morality could not invoke claims about God if it were to be legitimate). And what he came up with (the ‘Categorical Imperative’) looks strikingly similar to the Golden Rule. Sure, not everyone follows Kant’s system when it comes to morality (just as not everyone follows the Golden Rule) but it’s remarkable how similar the two ideas are.

The Bible says man will proclaim his own goodness (Proverbs 20:6). You need to look at yourself from God's perspective. Go through His 10 Commandments and see how you do.

It’s very difficult to look at myself from the perspective of God when some of God’s commandments seem to me to go against my own conscience.

So, when you stand before God on Judgment Day (whether you believe in Him or not) and He judges you by those Commandments, do you think you'll be innocent or guilty? If guilty, will you go to Heaven or Hell?

Do your answers concern you at all?

Assuming your interpretation of the Bible is correct (and I have no reason to believe it is not), then I think I will be judged guilty and will go to Hell.

Does this concern me? I think the honest answer is no, as I am not convinced (either in my mind or my heart) that the Bible is really the absolute word of God

Edited December 15, 2010 by doubting_tommy

[Believer112]

Everything bad in this world is because of satan. Jesus will soon return and clean this trash up! There's a lot of info for sceptics on the INTERNET, look it up. Want to see some end time signs?

http://www.lamblion....cles_signs1.php

http://www.lamblion....cles_signs3.php

John 8

⁴²Jesus told them, "If God were your Father, you would love me. After all, I'm here, and I came from God. I didn't come on my own. Instead, God sent me. ⁴³Why don't you understand the language I use? Is it because you can't understand the words I use? ⁴⁴You come from your father, the devil, and you desire to do what your father wants you to do. The devil was a murderer from the beginning. He has never been truthful. He doesn't know what the truth is. Whenever he tells a lie, he's doing what comes naturally to him. He's a liar and the father of lies. ⁴⁵So you don't believe me because I tell the truth. ⁴⁶Can any of you convict me of committing a sin? If I'm telling the truth, why don't you believe me? ⁴⁷The person who belongs to God understands what God says. You don't understand because you don't belong to God."

And again, I simply cannot comprehend how a newborn child deserves to be dead and in Hell right now. My conscience tells me that we deserve what we are responsible for, nothing more and nothing less. Yet a newborn child is not responsible for anything, since it is not mentally developed enough to understand how to make decisions. Again, I'm not arguing here that God is wrong (how could He be?), I'm simply trying to point out another case where what I am told God says is moral does not align with my own conscience.

In 2 Samuel 12, King David's newborn son fell terminally ill. After seven days, the child died. In verses 22 and 23, the Bible records that David said: "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." It is clear that David's dead infant son would never return to this Earth, but David also said that one day, he would go to be with his son. Through inspiration, David documented that his own eternal destination was going to be "in the house of the Lord" (Psalm 23:6). Therefore, we can conclude that "the house of the Lord" would be the eternal destination of his infant son to whom David would one day go. King David was looking forward to the day when he would be able to meet his son in heaven.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Believer112

[doubting_tommy]

In 2 Samuel 12, King David's newborn son fell terminally ill. After seven days, the child died. In verses 22 and 23, the Bible records that David said: "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." It is clear that David's dead infant son would never return to this Earth, but David also said that one day, he would go to be with his son. Through inspiration, David documented that his own eternal destination was going to be "in the house of the Lord" (Psalm 23:6). Therefore, we can conclude that "the house of the Lord" would be the eternal destination of his infant son to whom David would one day go. King David was looking forward to the day when he would be able to meet his son in heaven.

With respect, that doesn't help me to understand why the baby had to fall ill in the first place, and why it wasn't given the same chance at life that I, someone who actually has committed many sins, have been given.

[Believer112]

In 2 Samuel 12, King David's newborn son fell terminally ill. After seven days, the child died. In verses 22 and 23, the Bible records that David said: "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." It is clear that David's dead infant son would never return to this Earth, but David also said that one day, he would go to be with his son. Through inspiration, David documented that his own eternal destination was going to be "in the house of the Lord" (Psalm 23:6). Therefore, we can conclude that "the house of the Lord" would be the eternal destination of his infant son to whom David would one day go. King David was looking forward to the day when he would be able to meet his son in heaven.

With respect, that doesn't help me to understand why the baby had to fall ill in the first place, and why it wasn't given the same chance at life that I, someone who actually has committed many sins, have been given.

Your implying God does this to children? We live in a fallen world because of the devils deception in the beginning. He currently rules this world and come to steal kill and destroy. Did you look at theose websites?

^{John 16 10}About righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God), because I go to My Father, and you will see Me no longer; ¹¹About judgment, because the ruler (evil genius, prince) of this world [satan] is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him.

John 10:10 (King James Version)

¹⁰The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

[doubting_tommy]

Your implying God does this to children? We live in a fallen world because of the devils deception in the beginning. He currently rules this world and come to steal kill and destroy. Did you look at theose websites?

^{John 16 10}About righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God), because I go to My Father, and you will see Me no longer; ¹¹About judgment, because the ruler (evil genius, prince) of this world [satan] is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him.

John 10:10 (King James Version)

¹⁰The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

I’m afraid that neither of the links worked for me.

If God is omnipotent, then He could, if He chose, make it so that diseases do not cause suffering to newborn children, and He could make it so that natural disasters do not maim and kill newborn children. For some reason He chooses not to, and I can think of only the following possibilities, assuming that God exists:

1. God is unable to prevent such suffering (in which case, He is not omnipotent)

2. God is unwilling to prevent such suffering

2.1 Because God is evil and enjoys causing suffering

2.2 Because God is indifferent to human suffering

2.3 Because God works in mysterious ways and such suffering is a necessary part of His plan.

The problem with 2.3 is that I have no logical reason to think that apparent suffering is part of a mysterious plan of a good God than I have to think that it is part of a mysterious plan of an evil or uncaring God.

Edited December 15, 2010 by doubting_tommy

[other one]

Your implying God does this to children? We live in a fallen world because of the devils deception in the beginning. He currently rules this world and come to steal kill and destroy. Did you look at theose websites?

^{John 16 10}About righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God), because I go to My Father, and you will see Me no longer; ¹¹About judgment, because the ruler (evil genius, prince) of this world [satan] is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him.

John 10:10 (King James Version)

¹⁰The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

I

[doubting_tommy]

Keep in mind that all those kids will be in heaven when the time comes...... Will you???

I do hope that's true.