Dionysiou Posted March 8, 2011 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 68 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/08/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2011 I have always found grace very confusing. Does grace mean that it is actually God who is working through people for the better? In that no man can boast of his works because it was actually God who accomplished it? Or is it that the person that accomplishes the works and stays righteous by making the constant effort themself? Or is it a co-operative movement which needs effort and works from the people as well as help from God? So that both the person and God get credit for the accomplishments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 8, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,335 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,533 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I have always found grace very confusing. Does grace mean that it is actually God who is working through people for the better? In that no man can boast of his works because it was actually God who accomplished it? Or is it that the person that accomplishes the works and stays righteous by making the constant effort themself? Or is it a co-operative movement which needs effort and works from the people as well as help from God? So that both the person and God get credit for the accomplishments. God forgive us to think we could define what the Son of God bled from His brow to be delivered from.... So lets be clear eternity exists in the Person of God and us sharing that eternity is woven completely in the need of it to render thanksgiving to Him who has given GRACE to us who believe! The greatest fear I hold is the awareness The Father will give me of His and His Son's sacrifice for my being made able to pass the Holy Inspection of The Father's Holy Stare.... I know there is a sorrow unless The Father Himself wipe it from our beings it will not be removed, I believe it is this very sorrow He and His Son has shared One With Another in our deliverance we too shall drink from this cup of remembrance- GRACE at this time will be fully known and had not The Holy Spirit been given into us for the eternal presence we in fact would perish from the grief it will bring for it is written "Nothing hidden that will not be known"... As far as mans hearts comprehension it can only base its suppositions on that which he is surrounded with in creation and God because of sin has already deemed it for the fire and our bodies that we worship on a regular basis also that fire. What then is left to understand Grace it can only be The Holy Spirit of God in conjunction with His truth JN 18:37 that Christ brought with Him to tell first then show its reality. After seeing the most loving Person of purest value give absolutely all of Himself and to see what OUR sin did to Him both physically and Spiritually is the beginning of GRACE and the ending well that will never be.... Grace is the new creation totally separated from this world, our old nature, our past/present/future sins by the power that is In The Holy Son Of God witnessed in resurrection of His Life "because He lives We also shall live In HIm"... True GRACE forms this in every child- John 8:23-24 23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." NKJV Simply if He is not of this world then the GRACE IN TRUTH that He brought is also not of this world. So what of this world may be mixed with the gift of GRACE and it remain not of this world? Love Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted March 8, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2011 I have always found grace very confusing. Does grace mean that it is actually God who is working through people for the better? In that no man can boast of his works because it was actually God who accomplished it? Or is it that the person that accomplishes the works and stays righteous by making the constant effort themself? Or is it a co-operative movement which needs effort and works from the people as well as help from God? So that both the person and God get credit for the accomplishments. This is a very good question, so I'd like to add my perspective to what Steven has already mentioned. Grace is undeserved favour. It is most manifest in our atonement through Jesus' death on our behalf, and his subsequent resurrection to conquor the effects of the curse of death because of sin, and offer us eternal life with Him. A person is not capable of earning this reward - it is a free gift. We are so unworthy of it that there is no doing good to earn it in the sense of weighing in good deeds to stack up against bad deeds because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) and "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it" (James 2:10). That is why works are not counted as righteousness, because apart from God's grace "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). This is how we know that we don't work towards or in payment for our salvation, but we are"justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God... And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 5:1-2 ; 11:6). So, when you see the passage to which it souned like you alluded, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted March 8, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,245 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,972 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Online Share Posted March 8, 2011 grace ends at the far end of eternity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted March 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I agree with sheepdog. The key in that passage to me was that "so no man could boast", we can't boast about something given to us, we could boast about something that we did that earned something or had merit, but we can't do that with grace. This is why pride is so dangerous to faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 ___ ______ _________ ____________ I have always found grace very confusing. Does grace mean that it is actually God who is working through people for the better? In that no man can boast of his works because it was actually God who accomplished it? For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13 ____________ Or is it that the person that accomplishes the works and stays righteous by making the constant effort themself? Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4 ____________ Or is it a co-operative movement which needs effort and works from the people as well as help from God? So that both the person and God get credit for the accomplishments. The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:17 ____________ _________ ______ ___ Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11 Be Very Blessed Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. John 15:3-4 Hallelujah! Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 1 Timothy 1:5 Amen! Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Romans 5:1 Love, Your Brother Joe Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice. Set a watch, O LORD, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips. Psalms 141:2-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted March 9, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) grace ends at the far end of eternity... Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with themthough they were offered in accordance with the law... we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Hebrews 10:8-10). ... as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us (Psalm 103:12). I agree with sheepdog. The key in that passage to me was that "so no man could boast", we can't boast about something given to us, we could boast about something that we did that earned something or had merit, but we can't do that with grace. This is why pride is so dangerous to faith. Absolutely. I recently heard Todd Friel point out Naaman is a good example of how it was necessary for God to chose the foolish things of this world to make His will known, because if He were to work through the mighty works of men then creation could take the credit, forgetting that all power and glory is of the Creator. when Christ came... he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation... Christ has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him (experts from Hebrews chapter 9). Edited March 9, 2011 by OldEnglishSheepdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 10, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,335 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,533 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Anyone care to discuss "living under grace?" There seems in some churches, the practicing of hyper grace. In that we can do anything in that Jesus told us we would, like drink poison,"lay hands and heal, and more than He Himself did. Someone gave a simple example to me the other day. Don't concern yourself with anything of the world; you are a dead man walking. For instance, if you walk into a supermarket to buy a bag of apples, don't even bother looking at the apples for bruises, they will be perfect if you live under perfect grace. Anything is possible. Where does grace start, and more importantly, where does it end? (In worldly terms?). Somewhere between the Pharisees drum set and the hyper grace electric guitar, there has to be a place that grace rests. Grace, truth, love, knowledge, God, understanding, God's will, etc. all mean the same thing, GOD. God is forever but our bodies he formed for us to use during this age is only temporary until he reveals some of his knowledge within the hearts, minds and souls of Jesus and his saints. His prophets were sinners so they didn't get to experience this knowledge in their hearts, minds and souls. Their bodies died as sinners but they will get to experience this love and grace in God when they get their new bodies in paradise. All God's people will experience his love, grace, truth, knowledge, etc. in this new paradise. You are a bit scattered out... aren't you friend? You do know The Father and The Son are completely united back in matters of Deity? Love Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted March 10, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 10, 2011 I can only speak the truth so if you disagree, you can't understand the true God. So anyone who disagrees with you can't understand the 'true' God? What cult are you associated with? There is only one God and he reveals his knowledge in the bodies that he consigned to himself and I happen to be one of his bodies. Are you serious? All the other bodies were killed by the Roman government within the first three hundred years after the body of Jesus died as a sacrifice. This sacrifice made it possible for us saints to be made sinless so God has total control of our bodies, which are his to begin with. The only one who was EVER sinless is Jesus Himself; unless you are Him you are guilty of absolute heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 10, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,335 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,533 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Anyone care to discuss "living under grace?" There seems in some churches, the practicing of hyper grace. In that we can do anything in that Jesus told us we would, like drink poison,"lay hands and heal, and more than He Himself did. Someone gave a simple example to me the other day. Don't concern yourself with anything of the world; you are a dead man walking. For instance, if you walk into a supermarket to buy a bag of apples, don't even bother looking at the apples for bruises, they will be perfect if you live under perfect grace. Anything is possible. Where does grace start, and more importantly, where does it end? (In worldly terms?). Somewhere between the Pharisees drum set and the hyper grace electric guitar, there has to be a place that grace rests. Grace, truth, love, knowledge, God, understanding, God's will, etc. all mean the same thing, GOD. God is forever but our bodies he formed for us to use during this age is only temporary until he reveals some of his knowledge within the hearts, minds and souls of Jesus and his saints. His prophets were sinners so they didn't get to experience this knowledge in their hearts, minds and souls. Their bodies died as sinners but they will get to experience this love and grace in God when they get their new bodies in paradise. All God's people will experience his love, grace, truth, knowledge, etc. in this new paradise. You are a bit scattered out... aren't you friend? You do know The Father and The Son are completely united back in matters of Deity? Love Steven I can only speak the truth so if you disagree, you can't understand the true God. There is only one God and he reveals his knowledge in the bodies that he consigned to himself and I happen to be one of his bodies. All the other bodies were killed by the Roman government within the first three hundred years after the body of Jesus died as a sacrifice. This sacrifice made it possible for us saints to be made sinless so God has total control of our bodies, which are his to begin with. Religious people can only think in terms of the scriptures that the Jews and Romans changed to make them religious in appearance. What I mean by this, is that they added many pagan ideas in the scriptures so they would have something they could understand. This is why they liked church buildings, altars, pews, idols, choirs, pulpits, where they could discuss their pagan ideas like communion, water baptism, bodily resurrections, hell, pentecost, triune god, gifts of the spirit, tongues, tithes and offerings, etc. God has revealed a lot of knowledge in my heart, mind and soul that is far beyond what any religious person could ever understand. Deity has nothing to do with God. That is a religious word to make sinners feel special. There are many religious words that have nothing to do with God. Whoa!!!! I did an understatement your not scattered your lost! The only foundation in this world is His Written Word Genesis through Revelation! By this all things even you are understood... Love Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts