Why Do atheists Attack Christianity?

[nChrist]

Isaiah 55:6-11 KJV Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

[Fraught]

With regard to Western law and policies, sure some stick in your throat but on the whole I guess you enjoy a society that forbids stealing others property, condemns murder etc...all commandments straight out of the OT....remember, these laws are not Anglo Saxon originate but Semetic...from Ancient Hebrew....Thank God literally that theses commandments were given to Moses to hand to the people of Israel to then find it's way to a society you happen to be born into. If it wasn't for Chrisitianity spreading around the globe, you wouldn't enjoy these laws that protect you.

Anglo Saxon societies forbade murder and theft. In fact, I cannot think of a single society, ancient or modern which has not done so.

In any case, most secularists, whether reigious or atheist, would prefer to see a society where the state enforces rules to which all reasonable people could agree. It's not reasonable to expect that a person consents to a law which is justified only if one accepts the veracity of a particular religious text. There are good reasons which will convince any reasonable atheist as to why a society should outlaw theft or murder. Not so when it comes to other issues, like keeping holy a sabbath day, not eating pork, or criminalisation of homosexual acts, etc.

I hear you tommy - what do you make of ancient Roman society where peadophilia was rampant and acceptable especially amongst the wealthy and prestigious members of its community? And what do you make of cannibalism which has roots in many cultures including the Anglo Saxons?

Eating pork and keeping the Sabbath - are you suggesting Christians try to make folk observe these OT laws? I eat pork and I don't keep Sabbath according to OT laws - does that make me a pseudo Christian?

I think it's not a good idea to base the laws of today on the laws of the past regardless of what culture we're talking about. Just because something was done in the past does not mean it's a good idea to do it now- as you show with your example of cannibalism.

Some of the laws which have been observed across many cultures are good ones and we should definitely keep them, but others are not and should not be preserved. What we need is a way to figure out which are which. I think any reasonable number of people can get together, be they Christians, Jews, Atheists, Hindus, etc., and come up with laws that everyone can agree to abide by.

There are other laws which are given by God according to some people's beliefs (like not eating pork if you are Jewish or Muslim) which I don't think should be the law for everybody else. This is because eating pork only makes sense as being immoral if you believe that God thinks it's wrong to eat pork. Since not everyone does believe this, and since it's not right to force religious beliefs on people if they're not harming you, it would be unfair for a Jewish majority, for example, to pass laws making it illegal for anyone to eat pork.

It *is* fair to force people not to kill or steal, however, since this is objectively harmful behaviour regardless of what you believe.

I am not sure if all Jewish folk abstain from eating pork..

And I think you are missing the point when it comes to cannibalism etc - a society didn't just wake up one day and decide that eating other human beings was bad - no - it flowed on after Chrisitanity was introduced to that society and the people were now "enlightened" ....this is most definitely the case in New Guinea where cannibalism was still rife in the 20th Century. (we now know today that cannibalism gives the same symptoms as the Mad Cow" disease which hit GB and Europe not too long ago)..

On the whole, the US is considered a "Christian country" that sits on a Christian foundation stemming from the Hebrew Bible.

How do you feel about the fact that your founding fathers brought Christianity to the Americas and built your country on that particular foundation rather than say certain American Indian religious views or Hinduism? I wonder how the US would look today if it was founded on atheisitic belief system. Vastly different? Not much different?

Do you think Christianity has helped the US become the great nation that it is? Because there is no doubt that the US has been the leading Western country for many many years... anyone from any religious background can see that.

the US is different because of this 1 statement from the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence. It is the basis from which the constitution is derived and is very different from many countries where the good of the state is more important than the good of individual citizens:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[nebula]

Well then I will not ask you to explain more. I've heard of other Christians having similar experiences, they too ascribed it to demons or the Devil. I will say that I've physically seen [entities] and objects move on their own while wide awake, among other things. I'm not sure what was going on, but I think demons is a far-fetched explanation for what I've encountered. But I do not presume to know what you've gone through.

Thank-you.

But I am curious as to what you have concluded these things to be that you experienced? And what were the circumstances?

I actually never read Job, although I believe the main message of the story is that God's ways are higher than our ways.

You have determined a message without having read it?

I think you should read it. And here's a puzzle to work through - Was Elihu a "good guy" or a "bad guy"?

When you realize that your reasoning is foolishness to God, then you'll be getting somewhere.

Look at it this way -

Have you ever considered why God compares us to sheep? *Answer to be given later

Is it because sheep need to be herded; let them go on their own and they will get lost?

That's the addendum. (I trust you read the answer above?)

[nebula]

But to answer your question, "If I said that you are exalting your wisdom over the Odin by requiring evidence that Norse mythology is correct, and such is a very bad thing to do, how would you take it?"

I'd laugh.

You may laugh, yet I see the same sort of thing being claimed about God and scripture. I'm not sure if that is really what you are saying or implying, however it sure looks like it from my angle.

I don't believe in Norse mythology because I am convinced that Jesus is who He said He is in Scripture, that what Scripture testifies is true - and accordingly, all other gods and religions are false. Need I post the Scriptures?

IOW, God doesn't care about sincerity in the search for truth. He just wants mindless followers. That is essentially what you are implying.

OK then - enlighten me on what the verse means. What is the Lord saying?

I wasn't commenting on scripture per se, just your response to my question. The verse, from what I can tell, just says that those who believe are [saved].

No that is not even close to what the verse says.

I challenge you to do a study on and seek the Lord about what the verse means.

I dare you.

My question involves God's perspective on those who earnestly seek the truth and yet do not find true Christianity in contrast to those who grew up in the faith and never bothered to looked to see if their faith is correct. From what I've seen of your posts, God doesn't care about a genuine search for truth, if anything it is a negative in His eyes.

Where does faith fit into your equation?

Do you not know the value the Lord places on faith?

Should faith then be a part of your pursuit?

And what does Scripture say is the greatest pursuit?

[nebula]

And what makes your conclusion that much more correct?

The truth doesn't change, but I think that through working with evidence, logic and reason you have a better chance at finding the truth than just blindly following what people tell you.

You mean like Carl Sagan and John Lennon and Sigmond Freud?

I'm actually reading one of Sagan's books right now, The Demon-Haunted World, mostly about UFOs and alien abductions so far; tying in demons and such from the middle ages to the same phenomena(s) responsible for today's UFO "hysteria". I'm learning a little about the history, but as far as the actual science involved I've heard just about all of it before from other sources. I never bothered to look up anything Lennon had to say, guess I'm too young. Freud is just obsessed with phallic symbols and the Oedipus complex, good for a few laughs but not much else, all of his ideas have largely been rejected by modern psychologists.

These were men who relied on working through evidence and logic and reason - did they find the truth?

How about Richard Dawkins? Is he anywhere close to the truth?

I try to listen to what people with credentials have to say about things they are qualified to speak about. Same with reading, albeit I'm not much of a reader. I really don't see a problem with trying to use evidence and reason to understand the world around us.

For science, not a problem. For morality, no. For operating in the spiritual realm, no.

[nebula]

Attel -

18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE." 20 Where is the wise man ? Where is the scribe ? Where is the debater of this age ? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world ? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom ; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble ; 27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD." (1 Cor. 1)

[nebula]

It's what I believe.

[nebula]

All faith is is "strong trust."

You have "strong trust" in your ability to reason. You have "strong trust" in science. You have "strong trust" that interpreting evidence is the best means of discovering truth.

[nChrist]

Tons of evidence from many sources indicate that God exists and His Word is the ultimate Truth. As a contrast, there are warehouses full of science related books that have been discredited and debunked. YET, God's Word stands these thousands of years! Why? - it's TRUTH, and countless millions of Christians throughout time have testified of personal relationships with God. Jesus Christ is the most written about in all of history, and the world time is set by His Earthly Ministry (i.e. B.C., A.D.). Countless other writers have verified the Holy Bible because it contains its own proof from cover to cover. It actually takes more faith to disbelieve God and His Word than to believe it.

The devil and hosts of people don't want there to be an All-Powerful and All-Supreme Being. Why? - They want to be the authority is one answer. They want to do as they please is another answer. Regardless of their personal wishes and rejection, God does exist and He is All-Sovereign. Every human who has ever lived will answer to God at His Appointed Time, and unbelievers certainly don't want to hear this. Like it or not, this is the absolute Truth, and all foretold by God will come to pass most perfectly. Almighty God can NOT be compared to any false god with a little "g". Jesus Christ walked among men and is a part of recorded history. He performed many miracles, signs, and wonders before men, including rising from the dead after crucifixion. In comparison, "gods" with a little "g" would be like a cheap carnival act. In fact, there is no comparison that can be made. Absolute Reality is very simple: God The Creator is Real, and God's Word is the Absolute Truth. God's Word is the measurement of all other Truths and it will endure forever. Jesus Christ Himself will be the Righteous Judge at the Great White Throne Judgment, and all who rejected Him will be condemned to the fires of hell forever. There won't be any atheists in hell - they will know who sent them there, but it will be too late.

For many, the above will be a matter of laughter and mockery, and that's very sad - sad for them. As for me:

Romans 8:1-2 (KJV) 1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[808state]

Tons of evidence from many sources indicate that God exists and His Word is the ultimate Truth. As a contrast, there are warehouses full of science related books that have been discredited and debunked. YET, God's Word stands these thousands of years! Why? - it's TRUTH, and countless millions of Christians throughout time have testified of personal relationships with God. Jesus Christ is the most written about in all of history, and the world time is set by His Earthly Ministry (i.e. B.C., A.D.). Countless other writers have verified the Holy Bible because it contains its own proof from cover to cover. It actually takes more faith to disbelieve God and His Word than to believe it.

I think an important thing to point out is that usually it's science debunking science, right? Also, science doesn't claim to be Absolute Truth like the Bible does to begin with.

And certainly there have been passages in the Bible that have been interpreted in many different ways over the centuries. So, while the Bible in it's purest form may represent Absolute Truth, perhaps the human understanding or interpretation of it is relative just like the human understanding of how the world works is relative?

Edited January 19, 2011 by 808state