How can you believe in the FULL BIBLE....

[sdktlk]

but you are right, it is MY choice, but that's why I asked the question. I'm honestly not trying to force anything on any one...all I'm wanting is a little understanding between believers, a conscious dialogue without dispute.

... the one thing I've seen coming up is that it seems like the majority of believers here just want to take the Foundation Scriptures and throw them out. "Oh, we don't have to follow them because they were replaced by Jesus", "We live under grace, not by law", etc...I'm afraid I can't wrap my thinking around this sort of theology. Even Y'shua said that the Torah will not be taken away "until all is fulfilled"...this scripture seems to be misunderstood. Perhaps I'm all wet, but I think it means until heaven and earth pass (Revelation 22).

So why the apparently deliberate misinterpretation of His word? Is it because believers just don't want to wrap their minds around the idea that we are ALL the house of Israel (Romans 11)?

What is bothering me with these posts is the tone, are you really saying you think people here throw out scriptures? Don't you mean they interpret the scriptures differently to you? There is a WORLD of difference. Choosing not to put oneself under the old law does not equate to throwing out scripture or treating it lightly.

I also do not know a single person here who deliberately misinterprets the Word, or refuse to try to wrap their minds around an idea.

We must be careful, if we want a 'conscious dialogue without dispute', as you stated you do, not to smear people before they have even begun to discuss...

not to mention that people who post this sort of thing almost assuredly dont not follow all 613 laws in the Old Testament, which would make them gulity of what they accuse others of.

There are laws and then there are laws. We see the law of Moses, and the we see "the perfect law of liberty" (Jas 1:25; 2:12.) We see "the law of sin and death" and "the law of the Spirit of life" in Romans 8:2.) God's plan has always been to go forward in Christ Jesus, we must be careful when we look back. Remember Lot's wife.

[Guest man]

I've been reading in various threads (My other thread "Tithe?", "Is It Sinful To Eat Kosher?" and the now-closed "1 Cor 11 (the hair issue)) and the one thing I've seen coming up is that it seems like the majority of believers here just want to take the Foundation Scriptures and throw them out. "Oh, we don't have to follow them because they were replaced by Jesus", "We live under grace, not by law", etc...I'm afraid I can't wrap my thinking around this sort of theology. Even Y'shua said that the Torah will not be taken away "until all is fulfilled"...this scripture seems to be misunderstood. Perhaps I'm all wet, but I think it means until heaven and earth pass (Revelation 22).

I don't know. I really want to know what the answer is, and perhaps I might be delving a little too deep into a controversial area; if it is, Mods, please do as you wish with this thread. But I personally would really like to know. I know what *I* believe and why; what I can't understand is what others choose to believe and why.

Please explain...

Romans 13

8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

9 For the commandments,

[Rick-Parker]

That's quite a stretch to say that the "majority" of believer here do not follow the OT or that it doesn't apply in this day and age. I've never found that to be true, here. Perhaps you could point out to me where you have gotten this statistic?

[anitarose]

That's quite a stretch to say that the "majority" of believer here do not follow the OT or that it doesn't apply in this day and age. I've never found that to be true, here. Perhaps you could point out to me where you have gotten this statistic?

there is no statistic; in fact, let's just forget I asked the question. I sincerely wanted to know an answer and all I've gotten is slapped in the face for asking a sincere, honest question. Let's just forget it and let this thread die....

[Guest shiloh357]

I've been reading in various threads (My other thread "Tithe?", "Is It Sinful To Eat Kosher?" and the now-closed "1 Cor 11 (the hair issue)) and the one thing I've seen coming up is that it seems like the majority of believers here just want to take the Foundation Scriptures and throw them out. "Oh, we don't have to follow them because they were replaced by Jesus", "We live under grace, not by law", etc...I'm afraid I can't wrap my thinking around this sort of theology.

It is not that they are "replaced" by Jesus, but that Jesus is the personification of the Torah and all that the prophets said. Jesus "fulfilled" them in the sense that He came to bring them to full expression. Jesus is the goal, the focus, the main idea if you will, of the Torah and the Prophets and Writings. The Torah must be read in light of Jesus/Y'shua.

Even Y'shua said that the Torah will not be taken away "until all is fulfilled"...this scripture seems to be misunderstood. Perhaps I'm all wet, but I think it means until heaven and earth pass (Revelation 22).

Yes, but you need to understand that it speaks of the relevancy of the Torah. All of the Torah finds its nucleus its central theme in the person of Jesus Christ.

When Jesus was on the Mount of Transfiguration with Peter, James and John and Moses and Elijah (figuring the Torah and the Prophets) it was such a sight that Peter, after the scene had ended suggested three tabernacles be built for Moses, Jesus and Elijah. A voice came from heaven and said, "This is my beloved Son. Hear ye Him." Jesus was the final personal culmination of what Moses and Elijah represented. God has nothing to say to man apart from Jesus.

Perhaps it's the different denominations represented here. But even then, Paul states that we are all one in Y'shua, and there should be no division between believers (1Cor 1).

Just as side note, that is referencing divsion within a single congregation (the church at Corinth). It is not addressing denominations which are actually beneficial, not destructive.

So why the apparently deliberate misinterpretation of His word? Is it because believers just don't want to wrap their minds around the idea that we are ALL the house of Israel (Romans 11)?

Actually, that is not true. "Israel" is never used except to denote the literal, physical descendents of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. The Bible does not spiritualize that name.

That the blessings of Abraham (and the subsequent laws that pertain to the children of Abraham) are ours BECAUSE we are the house of Israel, native-born AND adopted by the blood of Y'shua?

Sounds like you are getting off into the "Two House" theology that has been infiltrating Messianic Jewish congregations. Is your Rabbi a Yeshiva-trained Rabbi?

Or is it something else that might be rather insidious...that early church fathers wanted to deny that Y'shua and his talmudim were Jewish (of the tribe of Judah) to begin with??? Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin---the descendant of Rachel, and brother of Joseph---and those same early church fathers wanted to wipe the actual history of the church and replace it with Greek texts (the Scriptures were really written in Hebrew or Aramaic), replace all the names if they even SOUNDED Jewish (Y'shua with "Jesus", etc)?

I have never read that the early Fathers denied that Jesus or Paul were Jewish.

[anitarose]

Listen, everyone. I asked a simple question. It may not have been worded correctly to everyone's liking but I did ask. I do my very best to NOT get in a confrontation with anybody; I give my opinion and go from there. But apparently there are people here who seize upon words that I probably state wrongly and beat me over the head with it.

As to the question about keeping all 613 commandments; because there is no physical Temple in Jerusalem, it is impossible to keep 2/3rds of them, as they pertain to the Levitical priesthood and sacrifice. If you look at it from a Messianic Jewish point of view, the sacrifices are a type and shadow and point directly to the ONE Pesach Lamb who was sacrificed for our sins. If you look at it from a rabbinical Judaistic point of view, it's this: the Rabbis, after the Temple was destroyed, instituted "good deeds", or mitzvot, for those Commandments that couldn't be kept because of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. So the answer is: I keep as many of the Commandments as I possibly can, to the modern day.

I am very disappointed in this Forum. I used to believe it was filled with loving Christian people; but OH HEAVENS, do NOT even come close to the sacred religious cow called Christianity. If you do, if you even attempt it, those very same people you THOUGHT were loving turn nasty and violent.

Mods, please shut this thread down. Thanks.

a.

[anitarose]

Listen, everyone. I asked a simple question. It may not have been worded correctly to everyone's liking but I did ask. I do my very best to NOT get in a confrontation with anybody; I give my opinion and go from there. But apparently there are people here who seize upon words that I probably state wrongly and beat me over the head with it.

As to the question about keeping all 613 commandments; because there is no physical Temple in Jerusalem, it is impossible to keep 2/3rds of them, as they pertain to the Levitical priesthood and sacrifice. If you look at it from a Messianic Jewish point of view, the sacrifices are a type and shadow and point directly to the ONE Pesach Lamb who was sacrificed for our sins. If you look at it from a rabbinical Judaistic point of view, it's this: the Rabbis, after the Temple was destroyed, instituted "good deeds", or mitzvot, for those Commandments that couldn't be kept because of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. So the answer is: I keep as many of the Commandments as I possibly can, to the modern day.

I am very disappointed in this Forum. I used to believe it was filled with loving Christian people; but OH HEAVENS, do NOT even come close to the sacred religious cow called Christianity. If you do, if you even attempt it, those very same people you THOUGHT were loving turn nasty and violent.

Mods, please shut this thread down. Thanks.

a.

what are your clothes made out of? are they of woven of two kinds of material?

you come in here and accuse people of throwing out a majority of the bible, and you are disappointed in us?

Look, it's your own words. I asked a QUESTION, I didn't accuse. It was an observation on my part that might have been faulty, but I sincerely wanted to know the answers.

I'm not a "professional debater" like y'all are. All I am is someone who is searching for answers. For me, I found them in following the full Scriptures, including studying the Torah and living my life the best I can according to the Torah. I can't word things in flowery speech and expect people to understand me when I say something that is at best misconstrued and at worst perceived to be downright insulting.

It just seems TO ME (an observation) that there's a lot of people here that either are, I don't know, I can't find the words to say that won't be misunderstood.

I have a very wounded heart right now. This has turned into a debate and I cannot handle any sort of confrontation. This reminds me of the arguments I used to have with my father (someone who to my knowledge never became a Christian because the church was filled with "hypocrites") and when they got heated, I left the room because I didn't have the knowledge or the wisdom to answer them to his satisfaction. All this thread has done is open those old wounds. Because of that, I am asking that the mods close this thread; I can't even see the screen to type because all I can do is cry. I can't answer your questions to your satisfaction either, just like my father. And because I couldn't answer his questions, he died and went to hell. I don't want to have that happen to anyone else.

I'm trying really hard to be loving and answer your questions, but right now I just can't. You have no idea how it feels to me to see accusations thrown about (especially when I didn't mean them, I was simply asking a question) and then to be told, in essence that I'm stupid for asking the questions and that I'm insulting and rude and just being a donkey. I am none of those things, Gator. All I'm trying to do is understand people, and if I insulted anyone by my question, well, you know, I'm really sorry.

Trust me, I won't come back in here again if I have any sort of questions about the Scriptures. I'll just go to my Pastor. At least he won't treat me like I'm some dumb hick who shouldn't be asking any questions at all.

So much for love.

a.

[enoob57]

The whole council of God:

Genesis through Revelation begins with how we came into being. How sin came into being and how we accepted it into ourselves. The workings of God to explain holiness verses sin and the why there is only one way to live and by our own efforts it could never be done! Introduction to God's Son Jesus Christ who could do it perfectly for 33 years and then accepted our sin for His earned righteousness... All things explained through the eternal state... Sinlessness into the eternities of unbounded worship to the satisfaction of God The Father unto unlimited abilities for His Glory the hope of our reality...

This is sealed by The Written Word and cannot be altered, changed or denied in its culmination of the eternal beginning... With this heritage we may walk assured that the differences that are now encountered by the confusion of sin presently still in our midst is of temporary discomfort and exercises our obedience to the pleasures of God... This is our purpose of this time to find obedience against the overwhelming confused state of the place we are in... this will at times bring us solely to the relationship of Christ in us without external aid and empowered from within by The Holy Spirit taking us to the place of Spiritual source Rom 8, Eccl 12...

returning from where we began in the election of God The Foundation of Spirit

John 17:24-26

24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

NKJV

Eph 1:4-6

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

NKJV

It is important to absorb the Promises so fully that we are made able to withstand the frailties of our sin soaked bodies under a subjection to the separation of flesh and Spirit in order to shine forth the truth that we believe that fullness is in Christ Jesus to the Glory of The Father.... Love Steven

[Guest man]

Mods, please shut this thread down. Thanks.

a.

At the botom left this page you find a window that says this, "Topic Moderation". Click the little arrow next to it and choose "Close this Topic", then click "Go".

This is your thread. You can close it.

[enoob57]

So much for love.

a.

Loved one there are many times in our lives where we will only have The Spiritual presence of Our Lord within... This is the source of strength where we will not fail one another even if many fall or stumble in lovelessness we may in Love lift, encourage and pray for restored obedience to the tongue and it required use in love only! He will deaden our pain in effort to restore for His Glory and Honor.... You are always Loved in Spiritual resource the flesh will convince you otherwise but it is weak and will not continue always with us.... Love Steven