Who is Jesus?

[Matthitjah]

The first hand testimonies found in the Bible are the ones I was offering to show to you and they are admissable as evidence in a court of Law. These folks wrote down what they saw and experienced as an account.

Here's something a little more interesting;

Lu 1:1

¶ Since many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

Lu 1:2

Even as they delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

Lu 1:3

It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto you in order, most excellent Theophilus,

Men came along later, like Dr. Luke, and heard this eyewitness testimony second hand and decided to seek out the people who had given such testimony so as to codify it. In the Gospel of Luke he gives record to what these eyewitnesses saw and experienced. The Bible is a verifiable source. Luke gives testimony and record to what the eyewitnesses saw, examined, and experienced.

When I stated that it was the life that you've longed to experience and live. I was stating that you long for and desire a life with meaning much like Paul's. We all do.

Peace,

Dave

Right. Personally, I guess a hurdle I have with this is that we don't seem to have any other accounts outside of the Bible to verify certain things within the Bible. It's at that point that I become skeptical.

Sure we do. We have archaelogical digs veryifying the presence of the first century Christian Churches right where Paul founded them and where Luke records them being at.

We have evidence of a distinctly Jewish culture in Egypt at the time of the Jews stay in Goshen before God libertaed them and parted the Red Sea.

As I've already said, the world was not likely to record the evidences of Christ's Ministry because by the worlds standards He was a miserable failure. He built no Temples, He erected no Cities, and He made no worldly conquests. However, He is mentioned by men like Josephus as having a following.

Peace,

Dave

[Guest SDGS]

I honestly think they know who He is and is just rejecting Him.

I mean this kindly,,, I find this to be judgment of others. This kind of judging makes me run, not make me open to hear God. It upsets me when this happens.

[808state]

I think I asked this prior, but to what end?

Do men willingly leave their lives or die for a scoundrel?

Well, yes, they do. I mean, people have lost their lives for other religions in the past, not just Christianity. All it takes is a belief in what they're fighting for.

What possessed Paul, a seemingly intelligent man by any account, to give up his position and power for a life of hardship and a martry's death?

Were they in it for the fame and the fortune? (They didn't receive any)

Were they motivated by Christ's personal magnetism and the huge success of His Ministry? (Which by any worldly account failed miserably)

Most liars lie for gain and you seem to be saying that the first hand accounts that we have were motivated by some personal gain. What was the gain?

Peace,

Dave

Well, you could say that about almost any religion. Religion, historically, typically plays the part of filling in holes that different societies may have at the time. It seems for early Christians, Christianity addressed problems and inequalities that their society was having at the time. It gave them hope. They thought it would better the society they were living in.

Sure we do. We have archaelogical digs veryifying the presence of the first century Christian Churches right where Paul founded them and where Luke records them being at.

We have evidence of a distinctly Jewish culture in Egypt at the time of the Jews stay in Goshen before God libertaed them and parted the Red Sea.

As I've already said, the world was not likely to record the evidences of Christ's Ministry because by the worlds standards He was a miserable failure. He built no Temples, He erected no Cities, and He made no worldly conquests. However, He is mentioned by men like Josephus as having a following.

Peace,

Dave

Yeah, I don't doubt that there is historical accuracy in the Bible. It's just certain events that don't have verification out of the Bible, it seems, could have been exaggerated or made up.

[Matthitjah]

Well, you could say that about almost any religion. Religion, historically, typically plays the part of filling in holes that different societies may have at the time. It seems for early Christians, Christianity addressed problems and inequalities that their society was having at the time. It gave them hope. They thought it would better the society they were living in.

Actually, this is a wrong view of Christianity. Yes, it does have an edifying effect upon any culture. However, what the Christian looks for is a city built without hands;

Heb 11:10

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

We are not looking to build a society or even to erect a city. We are following God and what we look for is the same thing that Abraham did. We are sojourners looking to the Ressurection of the Just.

Yes, some sychophants will willingly die for a person or a cult. It happens daily. However, those sychophants are usually few and far between and very localized. Christainity is a worldwide affair with millions upon hundreds of millions of adherents, through the ages, dying a martyrs death not for a cause, not for a Nation, not for a creed, but for the witness and the Love of their Faith in a man who happens to be God.

Muslims do die for their religion but they do so out of a desire to set up a Caliphate and also at an attempt at Salvation. Christians have died with no other cause than Love of the Truth. Their Salvation is secure. God has not asked for their chidlren, He's given us His own. He's not asked for their work, He's done it all. He only wants our Love and sometimes that costs us our lives. Yet we live.

peace,

Dave

[808state]

Actually, this is a wrong view of Christianity. Yes, it does have an edifying effect upon any culture. However, what the Christian looks for is a city built without hands;

Heb 11:10

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

We are not looking to build a society or even to erect a city. We are following God and what we look for is the same thing that Abraham did. We are sojourners looking to the Ressurection of the Just.

Right. I wasn't saying they were trying to build a new society or city. But that early Christians didn't believe the Roman Empire was particularly fair, especially to poor people and the enslaved. Christianity gave them hope of one day not having to deal with the hardships that they had been dealing with. It also gave them an emotional/spiritual support they didn't feel they had before.

Yes, some sychophants will willingly die for a person or a cult. It happens daily. However, those sychophants are usually few and far between and very localized. Christainity is a worldwide affair with millions upon hundreds of millions of adherents, through the ages, dying a martyrs death not for a cause, not for a Nation, not for a creed, but for the witness and the Love of their Faith in a man who happens to be God.

Muslims do die for their religion but they do so out of a desire to set up a Caliphate and also at an attempt at Salvation. Christians have died with no other cause than Love of the Truth. Their Salvation is secure. God has not asked for their chidlren, He's given us His own. He's not asked for their work, He's done it all. He only wants our Love and sometimes that costs us our lives. Yet we live.

peace,

Dave

Religious persecution is not something that only happens to Christians. Pagans died for their beliefs when faced with forced-conversion, Muslims have faced violent persecution, Jews have faced violent persecution, Hindus faced violent persecution, Buddhists faced violent persecution, etc.

[Matthitjah]

Actually, this is a wrong view of Christianity. Yes, it does have an edifying effect upon any culture. However, what the Christian looks for is a city built without hands;

Heb 11:10

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

We are not looking to build a society or even to erect a city. We are following God and what we look for is the same thing that Abraham did. We are sojourners looking to the Ressurection of the Just.

Right. I wasn't saying they were trying to build a new society or city. But that early Christians didn't believe the Roman Empire was particularly fair, especially to poor people and the enslaved. Christianity gave them hope of one day not having to deal with the hardships that they had been dealing with. It also gave them an emotional/spiritual support they didn't feel they had before.

Yes, some sychophants will willingly die for a person or a cult. It happens daily. However, those sychophants are usually few and far between and very localized. Christainity is a worldwide affair with millions upon hundreds of millions of adherents, through the ages, dying a martyrs death not for a cause, not for a Nation, not for a creed, but for the witness and the Love of their Faith in a man who happens to be God.

Muslims do die for their religion but they do so out of a desire to set up a Caliphate and also at an attempt at Salvation. Christians have died with no other cause than Love of the Truth. Their Salvation is secure. God has not asked for their chidlren, He's given us His own. He's not asked for their work, He's done it all. He only wants our Love and sometimes that costs us our lives. Yet we live.

peace,

Dave

Religious persecution is not something that only happens to Christians. Pagans died for their beliefs when faced with forced-conversion, Muslims have faced violent persecution, Jews have faced violent persecution, Hindus faced violent persecution, Buddhists faced violent persecution, etc.

Yes, but I'm not only talking about violent persecution because of hatred for a religion or race. I'm talking about folks willingly trashing their lives, like Paul or the other Apostles, and many Hundreds of millions of Missionaries throughout history, for the Love of God.

Ever heard of the Moravians? Google them.

These folks weren't out for anything other than the Love of the Truth.

Motivation is what I'm talking about.

Again, Muslims will sacrifice themselves with the goal of attaining vestal virgins and salvation in a trip to some "blasa" representation of heaven.

Do you believe that the Gospel writers, save John, all died Martyr's deaths? Would you agree that they believed that Christ was God and died for this Faith?

What motivated them to do such a thing? A lie? I'm not buying it. I've lied many times, I've never been motivated to die for one.

Peace,

Dave

[LuftWaffle]

Hi 808State,

Accepting my atheism was not something I did with a smile on my face. Christianity gives it's followers a set path, it gives their lives meaning, it gives them the feeling of unconditional love, it gives them something constant in their lives, it gives them a chance to see loved ones after death in what seems to be a pretty awesome location, etc. That sounds good to me.

I couldn't help but notice that you've mentioned a couple of reasons why Christianity would be appealing, but have you thought about the unifying concept within all these? They're all... a little self-centred, wouldn't you say? See how many times you've used the word 'give'?

But the greatest of all you've missed, and that's something that is almost always the case. It's been said, and I believe this is true, that everybody wants to go to heaven, they just don't want God to be there when they get there. And yet heaven is heaven because God is there, but He is seldomly the reason why people want to go to heaven. Interesting, isn't it?

Wouldn't you say that atleast in this regard, it makes sense when the Bible says that we are at enmity with God? Wouldn't it be great to meet God? Yet we're generally focussed on ourselves.

We truly are enemies of God, and even though you may not have realised it, what you've said demonstrates it.

Think about it though, besides seeing your loved ones, and spending time in a great location, wouldn't it all pale in comparison with meeting the Being who created this wonderful universe, and gave you life? ...Gave your loved ones life? And speaking of gifts, again, a far greater gift than giving meaning to life and having a path to follow, is the price that Jesus paid to save His enemies. God becoming man and carrying the guilt of a mankind who wants His heaven, but doesn't want His presence.

Nobody likes hearing that they need salvation. It's an affront, but when one truly looks at oneself, and compares oneself to Jesus, the gift of salvation becomes something almost incredible. I've gone from thinking that I didn't need salvation and being offended by the idea, to being unable to fathom, even believe, that God could really love one such as me. That He really bought my freedom. That's the amazing thing about the gospel.

I thought I'd share this with you, perhaps it'll be meaningful to you in a small way or atleast offer some food for thought.

[808state]

Yes, but I'm not only talking about violent persecution because of hatred for a religion or race. I'm talking about folks willingly trashing their lives, like Paul or the other Apostles, and many Hundreds of millions of Missionaries throughout history, for the Love of God.

Ever heard of the Moravians? Google them.

These folks weren't out for anything other than the Love of the Truth.

Motivation is what I'm talking about.

Again, Muslims will sacrifice themselves with the goal of attaining vestal virgins and salvation in a trip to some "blasa" representation of heaven.

Do you believe that the Gospel writers, save John, all died Martyr's deaths? Would you agree that they believed that Christ was God and died for this Faith?

What motivated them to do such a thing? A lie? I'm not buying it. I've lied many times, I've never been motivated to die for one.

Peace,

Dave

I don't see how Christians motives are that much different from people of other religions. Everyone believes that their religion is the Truth. Many Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists, etc. sacrificed their lives in favor of their spirituality when faced with forced-conversion. Their main motivation was they believed that they knew the Truth.

[808state]

I couldn't help but notice that you've mentioned a couple of reasons why Christianity would be appealing, but have you thought about the unifying concept within all these? They're all... a little self-centred, wouldn't you say? See how many times you've used the word 'give'?

Yes. I would definitely say it's a little self-centered.

But the greatest of all you've missed, and that's something that is almost always the case. It's been said, and I believe this is true, that everybody wants to go to heaven, they just don't want God to be there when they get there. And yet heaven is heaven because God is there, but He is seldomly the reason why people want to go to heaven. Interesting, isn't it?

Wouldn't you say that atleast in this regard, it makes sense when the Bible says that we are at enmity with God? Wouldn't it be great to meet God? Yet we're generally focussed on ourselves.

We truly are enemies of God, and even though you may not have realised it, what you've said demonstrates it.

Think about it though, besides seeing your loved ones, and spending time in a great location, wouldn't it all pale in comparison with meeting the Being who created this wonderful universe, and gave you life? ...Gave your loved ones life? And speaking of gifts, again, a far greater gift than giving meaning to life and having a path to follow, is the price that Jesus paid to save His enemies. God becoming man and carrying the guilt of a mankind who wants His heaven, but doesn't want His presence.

What I was pointing out in my other post was the initial appeal of Christianity. Of course, you'd want to glorify the source of your happiness (I figured that was a given, apparently it's not). You're not being a very good Christian if you're not. But, again, when talking to Christians about what initially drew them to Christianity, the main starting point was about what they personally got out of it. And once they saw what they got out of it and saw the power of it, it was then when they began to glorify God. Just speaking from my personal experiences.

Nobody likes hearing that they need salvation. It's an affront, but when one truly looks at oneself, and compares oneself to Jesus, the gift of salvation becomes something almost incredible. I've gone from thinking that I didn't need salvation and being offended by the idea, to being unable to fathom, even believe, that God could really love one such as me. That He really bought my freedom. That's the amazing thing about the gospel.

I thought I'd share this with you, perhaps it'll be meaningful to you in a small way or atleast offer some food for thought.

Well, thank you for sharing.

[Matthitjah]

Yes, but I'm not only talking about violent persecution because of hatred for a religion or race. I'm talking about folks willingly trashing their lives, like Paul or the other Apostles, and many Hundreds of millions of Missionaries throughout history, for the Love of God.

Ever heard of the Moravians? Google them.

These folks weren't out for anything other than the Love of the Truth.

Motivation is what I'm talking about.

Again, Muslims will sacrifice themselves with the goal of attaining vestal virgins and salvation in a trip to some "blasa" representation of heaven.

Do you believe that the Gospel writers, save John, all died Martyr's deaths? Would you agree that they believed that Christ was God and died for this Faith?

What motivated them to do such a thing? A lie? I'm not buying it. I've lied many times, I've never been motivated to die for one.

Peace,

Dave

I don't see how Christians motives are that much different from people of other religions. Everyone believes that their religion is the Truth. Many Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists, etc. sacrificed their lives in favor of their spirituality when faced with forced-conversion. Their main motivation was they believed that they knew the Truth.

The motivation to evangelize and even to die in every other religion is to attain a reward (Salvation). In Christianity the goal is to Love God, He's already seen to our Salvation.

In Islam they seek a worldly kingdom through a caliphate. They never know if their god will be satisfied with them.

However, God is completely satisfied with Jesus Christ.

We aren't seeking salvation through works or even sacrifice;

Ho 6:6

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Mt 9:12

But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Mt 9:13

But go and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

We aren't seeking an earthly Kingdom either;

Joh 18:36

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from here.

We are seeking to let people know of Gods Outrageous act of Love and His Eternal Gift of Grace.

Therefore; we can't be bribed and nothing the earth has to offer us will any longer appeal to us.

We are in a relationship with the Living God of all Creation.

That's what I'm talking about. Not persecution or martrydom for the sake of martrydom.

Paul, the other Apostles, and even folks liken the Moravians willingly trashed their own lives for the Love of God. Not a reward. Selling yourself into slavery like the Moravians did doesn't really have any upside or rewards and their salvation wasn't based upon their work. Neither would they receive Nirvana or Twenty Vestal Virgins in the afterlife.

Why would men do such a thing?

peace,

Dave