So what's with all the killing?

[Guest yod]

God has killed personally by wiping out sinful cities, sinful people etc. If you look at OT books like Judges, he even commands others to kill and intructs them on exactly how to carry out that job.

Every person and creature will die when He appoints it. Who are we to question how He decides this will happen?

My Bible study group can never make much headway on this topic since we only know a loving God who forgives us and treats us with even greater kindness than we treat each other.

Oy...that dualistic view of God was first posed by a man named Marcion, which made him the first heretic in christianity. They actually compiled all the books to make the Newer Covenant scriptures because of this man's railing against the God in the ONLY bible Paul used, the Tenach, which you would call "Old Testament". But only a few centuries later, this view was being taught as mainstream theological commentary in the dead religious institution called "the church"

He is ONE God. The same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. There isn't a shade of difference between the Father and the Son.

If you see a contradiction in the character of Yeshua and His Abba, YHVH, then the contradiction isn't in Him, but in your view of Him.

I find my experiences with coming to know God to run counter to this view of a vengeful Lord who smites the wicked.

Really? What does that god do? Wink?

Everyone will be judged....sooner or later. I'd prefer the wicked were not able to continue in wickedness at all, but God gives everyone an opportunity to turn away from sin and trust in Him any moment of every day. At some point, there is a place where the wicked have cursed themselves into oblivion...and I trust Him to decide when they will be stopped and how.

I also trust Him when a child dies of brain cancer, or a young mother dies of internal bleeding, or a middle-aged man gets prostate cancer....

Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.

[Guest]

God has killed personally by wiping out sinful cities, sinful people etc. If you look at OT books like Judges, he even commands others to kill and intructs them on exactly how to carry out that job.

Every person and creature will die when He appoints it. Who are we to question how He decides this will happen?

My Bible study group can never make much headway on this topic since we only know a loving God who forgives us and treats us with even greater kindness than we treat each other.

Oy... that dualistic view of God was first posed by a man named Marcion, which made him the first heretic in christianity. They actually compiled all the books to make the Newer Covenant scriptures because of this man's railing against the God in the ONLY bible Paul used, the Tenach, which you would call "Old Testament". But only a few centuries later, this view was being taught as mainstream theological commentary in the dead religious institution called "the church"

He is ONE God. The same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. There isn't a shade of difference between the Father and the Son.

If you see a contradiction in the character of Yeshua and His Abba, YHVH, then the contradiction isn't in Him, but in your view of Him.

I find my experiences with coming to know God to run counter to this view of a vengeful Lord who smites the wicked.

Really? What does that god do? Wink?

Everyone will be judged....sooner or later. I'd prefer the wicked were not able to continue in wickedness at all, but God gives everyone an opportunity to turn away from sin and trust in Him any moment of every day. At some point, there is a place where the wicked have cursed themselves into oblivion...and I trust Him to decide when they will be stopped and how.

I also trust Him when a child dies of brain cancer, or a young mother dies of internal bleeding, or a middle-aged man gets prostate cancer....

Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.

Hallelujah~!

[traveller]

God has killed personally by wiping out sinful cities, sinful people etc. If you look at OT books like Judges, he even commands others to kill and intructs them on exactly how to carry out that job. My Bible study group can never make much headway on this topic since we only know a loving God who forgives us and treats us with even greater kindness than we treat each other. I find my experiences with coming to know God to run counter to this view of a vengeful Lord who smites the wicked. I'm not refuting anything, or wavering in my faith. I just am interested in feedback and heartfelt opinions. I ask that you tell me from your own heart how you feel about this.

P.S. If you are not christian, please don't use this for a base of argument about the nature or existence of God.

Hi Matt - welcome to Worthy, BTW.

I used to agonize over this. Why did Almighty God descending (in all His glory) on Mt Sinai seem different to me than the Son of God (humbled before man) preaching the Sermon on the Mount? As has been said by many in this thread, I came to understand that it was my perspective.

In the Old Testament we read that God was delivering a people, raising them up to be a mighty nation through which the Messiah would come. He had to teach them how to be holy, how to live in the world with pagans surrounding them while retaining their faith and culture. He knew that even to this day they would be surrounded by enemies. They didn't even know dietary laws, or hygiene issues. They had to be taught how to get along with one another. Its rather like how we might view our parents a bit differently when we look back and recall how it was at home when we were rebellious teenagers, compared to how it became later in life when our relationship changed as we matured. Our parents didn't change - we did.

Good thread.

[Matthitjah]

That Jesus sure is mean;

Mr 7:27

But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not right to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

Why would He say such a mean thing to that woman who was worshipping Him like that?

He goes on though;

Lu 13:27

But he shall say, I tell you, I know not where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.

Lu 13:28

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Cruel I say. What's up with that sandal wearing hippie? Maybe He's not a sandal wearing hippie?

I might add to what the others have said that it is your perspective of God that is wrong.

In C.S. Lewis'es book the Chronicles of Narnia one of the animal charecters is stated as saying to one of the humans when queried about Aslan ( a charecter who is the representation of Jesus). That Aslan is a "wild and untame" Lion, but that He is Good.

Ever heard of the Numinous Awe? Look it up.

God is Just and merciful, but He is also a God of wrath, a wild and untame Lion, ferociosu even and downright dangerous.

Scripture records this;

Heb 10:31

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The Fear of the Lord is clean.

Ps 19:9

The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether

Many blessings to you today beloved of God.

Peace,

Dave

[Matt712]

Well, I don't think of Jesus as 'a sandal-wearing hippie' I can assure you. In regards to what's been said so far, perhaps I need to spend more time meditating on Jesus as King. Kings, after all, have onerous responsibilities. If I were a King of men, I would feel it important to root out and destroy treasonists, instruct those who carried out my laws, harshly if neccessary, and tend to a thousand other responsibilities every day. Jesus is reffered to as a 'Conquering King' and is also the King of our souls. That job must come with a host of choices that would be difficult for any ordinary man. But He has the wisdom of the Lord.

[Fraught]

thanks for the topic. i find it uplifting. that may seem strange but . . . (Isaiah 11:9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea) those who would hurt and destroy have got to go. I think the answer comes down to the idea of justice. Besides love, God is a God of justice. without justice, how could there be real love? we make excuses for people; God doesn't do that. God knows what is in peoples' hearts; we cannot know.

p.s.: I once read an article that theorized that humans have no independent spirit. We are animated by either the spirit of satan or the Spirit of God. I couldn't, of course, say that this is necessarily true, but if it were, well . . . that would explain a lot.

[Matthitjah]

thanks for the topic. i find it uplifting. that may seem strange but . . . (Isaiah 11:9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea) those who would hurt and destroy have got to go. I think the answer comes down to the idea of justice. Besides love, God is a God of justice. without justice, how could there be real love? we make excuses for people; God doesn't do that. God knows what is in peoples' hearts; we cannot know.

p.s.: I once read an article that theorized that humans have no independent spirit. We are animated by either the spirit of satan or the Spirit of God. I couldn't, of course, say that this is necessarily true, but if it were, well . . . that would explain a lot.

That's a lie straight from the pit of hell.

We have choice and free will thus we have an independent spirit. We side with whom we choose. God is not at fault. Neither did He make us animated robots.

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Consequently, I read with great interest this passage just this morning;

Ex 9:16

And indeed for this very cause have I raised you up, to show in you my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Ex 9:17

And yet exalt you yourself against my people, that you will not let them go?

Ex 9:18

Behold, tomorrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as has not been in Egypt since the foundation of it even until now.

Ex 9:19

Send therefore now, and gather your cattle, and all that you have in the field; for upon every man and beast that shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.

Ex 9:20

He that feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:

Ex 9:21

And he that regarded not the word of the LORD left his servants and his cattle in the field.

Even in the Old Testament God was Meciful, even in Judgment. Men choose not to heed the Word of the Lord and pay a heavy penalty with their very lives.

Let's also then consider the testimony of Rahab the Harlot;

Jos 2:8

¶ And before they were laid down, she came up unto them upon the roof;

Jos 2:9

And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD has given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.

Jos 2:10

For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when you came out of Egypt; and what you did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side of Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed.

Jos 2:11

And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

Jos 2:12

Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD, since I have showed you kindness, that you will also show kindness unto my father's house, and give me a true sign:

Jos 2:13

And that you will save alive my father, and my mother, and my brethren, and my sisters, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death.

Another account of Old Testament Mercy.

However,

We can take account of the Just nature of God in the New Testament;

Ac 5:3

But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Ac 5:4

While it remained, was it not your own? and after it was sold, was it not in your own power? why have you conceived this thing in your heart? you have not lied unto men, but unto God.

Ac 5:5

And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and died: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Wild Untame Lion or sandal wearing long haired hippie?

Peace,

Dave

[Guest]

Speaking From Spiritual Insight

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9

Don't Mess With The Man From Galilee

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. Joel 3:16

[Matt712]

Speaking From Spiritual Insight

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9

Don't Mess With The Man From Galilee

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. Joel 3:16

Matthew 10:34 "Do not imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword."

'Don't mess with the man from Galilee' is right! I've been meditating on this, and reading scripture relating to this topic. Jesus in his life as a man was very kind and forgiving, but no fool. He rebuked the pharisees(and many others) with righteous anger, and did not hesitate to let people know the judgement he would personally pass upon them if they denied him. He commanded that we love him more than our own parents, children, husbands and wives. From anyone else this would seem self-centered and crazy, but he possesses the authority to make such a command!