The Chosen/Elect

[Guest Tigershark]

It doesn't matter how "sharply" anyone answers Tiger. Calvin himself could come in here and make his case,  ("you" as in general you, not specifically you. )

True, Calvin himself could walk right through my office door and state his case.  I am obligated to listen, I am not obligated to agree.  Further until we get the sitautaion with Calvin's deep involvement in the executation of another seeingly rightious man, we need not discuss God.  For a man with bloody hands really does not need to waste his time speaking to me about God, until the blood is washed away, which Calvin did not do.

regards

Tigershark

[Guest Tigershark]

Now this has become fun.

[Guest C.D. Light]

Tiger--I really think your problem is that you think tooooooo much.  Meanwhile, you waste a lot of valuable time.

We can never figure out God.

cd

[Guest Tigershark]

Tiger--I really think your problem is that you think tooooooo much.

[Lanakila]

Tiger for some reason I think we are agreeing on this that the actual truth lies in the middle between the 2 extremes. The view we hold is called semi-Pelagianism developed by John Cassious a 4th century Augustinian. This believe system only holds the last point of Calvinism the P for Perseverence and the 4 points of Arminianism. Calvinism was actually an answer to Arminianism point by point. In my view Calvinism makes God evil because he "chooses" some to be damned before they are even born. This hypercalvinism point of election I take serious issue with.

[Guest Tigershark]

Tiger for some reason I think we are agreeing on this that the actual truth lies in the middle between the 2 extremes. The view we hold is called semi-Pelagianism developed by John Cassious a 4th century Augustinian. This believe system only holds the last point of Calvinism the P for Perseverence and the 4 points of Arminianism. Calvinism was actually an answer to Arminianism point by point. In my view Calvinism makes God evil because he "chooses" some to be damned before they are even born. This hypercalvinism point of election I take serious issue with.

Thos seems a more reasonable position.

regards

Tigershark

[Work in Progress]

This hypercalvinism point of election I take serious issue with.

I've been told there are "T.R's" - (Totally Reformed, or hypers) who won't even witness because of this doctrine. Never knew any personally, though. Talk about extreme! But I'm sure they somehow make it "fit" with Scripture.

[Lanakila]

If you knew the history of the Modern Missions Movement you would see this hypercalvisim I am talking about. William Carey the "Father of Modern Missions" wanted to go to India to convert the heathen, he was told "if God wanted the heathen saved, he would do it without you" by a board of Particular Baptists whom he went to get approved for the field. Well, Carey went anyway, without their approval and hundreds if not thousands of Indian People are in heaven today that would not be if Carey would not have went. We are commanded to go (its our job) in the Great Commission. God could have used a donkey, but he chose to use fallible man for some reason to win the world for Christ. ITS OUR JOB!!

[Work in Progress]

Amen and good for him! Yes, we ARE commanded to preach the Gospel! We have no idea who God is calling and who he isn't. And, like any thing else - it is mostly for OUR growth!

The only statement I would take issue with is that they are in heaven and wouldn't otherwise be there. It's a very hard to understand thing. On one hand, we say that that man had nothing to do with their salvation. Only God saves. Yet, God used the man. Yes, if God chose those for Heaven - they would be there regardless if a man obeys or not. But God has not set things up so that POOF, one supernaturally gets saved. (Well, it's 'supernatural', but you know what I mean, lol). He has set up his 'system' so that He uses us as His tools. He doesn't need to, but He does.

I suppose I am "hyper" to the point that I am relectant to give humankind any credit for salvation. Understanding the awesome gift of pure, unmerited grace is the key I think. The Bible says man is dead and that means dead, not comatose, not asleep. Dead people can not "reach out" and accept a gift.

Confusing at times.  

[Guest C.D. Light]

If you knew the history of the Modern Missions Movement you would see this hypercalvisim I am talking about. William Carey the "Father of Modern Missions" wanted to go to India to convert the heathen, he was told "if God wanted the heathen saved, he would do it without you" by a board of Particular Baptists whom he went to get approved for the field. Well, Carey went anyway, without their approval and hundreds if not thousands of Indian People are in heaven today that would not be if Carey would not have went. We are commanded to go (its our job) in the Great Commission. God could have used a donkey, but he chose to use fallible man for some reason to win the world for Christ. ITS OUR JOB!!

Lana--we never know if ANYBODY we've ever witnessed to will be or is, in heaven.  There is no possible way to know that. I would only go as far as to say "they said they accepted salvation, or they came forward" but I would never go so far as to tell anybody they were actually saved. Only God knows what was in their heart, whether it was real or not.

Matt 7:13 enter ye in at the strait gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way thatleadeth to destruction and MANY there be which go in thereat

14 because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it

lana, everybody aint gonna get saved, or jesus wouldnt have said this.  In fact he says here that there will be more that wont be saved, than those who will get saved. Why? Because he foreknew how man's hearts are, and what they would do.

There just is no such thing as "preach it to them and they'll get saved".  It doesnt work like that.

cd