Christians

[nebula]

Yes Yod. I do not claim to be "jewish" at all. I am an Ephramite!

Question - how do you know you are of the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

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Yod - that image is hysterical!!

[Guest shiloh357]

The Ephramite Error: A Short Summary

A Short Summary of

"The Ephraimite Error"

Submitted to the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations

and the International Messianic Jewish Alliance**

Committee Members: Kay Silberling, Ph.D.

Daniel Juster, Th.D.

David Sedaca, M.A.

Introduction

A movement alternately known as the "Ephraimite," "Restoration of Israel," "Two-Covenant Israel," or "Two House" movement has recently gained ground in some areas among ardent Christian Zionists. Proponents of this movement contend that members of the "born-again" segment of the Christian church are, in fact, actual blood descendants of the ancient Israelites who were exiled in the Assyrian invasion of Israel in 722 B.C.E.1

Primary among the movement's spokespersons are Batya Wootten and Marshall, a.k.a. Moshe, Koniuchowsky.

Analysis

Logic and Exegetical Method

Batya Wootten and Koniuchowsky build their theology of the church as physical Israel on typological and grammatically suspect readings of the stories of the biblical patriarchs and the fall of the northern kingdom of Israel in 722 B.C.E.

A Multitude of Nations

Starting with the patriarchs, Wootten argues that Jacob's promise to Ephraim in Gen 48:19 predicted the transformation of Ephraim/Israel into Gentiles.2 Wootten claims that every time the Hebrew word, goy, is employed, it is a reference to a Gentile or a Gentile nation.3

This is incorrect. In the Hebrew Bible and the Apostolic Writings, while the word goy (English: people, nation; Greek: ethnos) may refer to a Gentile nation, it may, just as easily, refer to the nation of Israel. The term is used to refer to Israel or the Jewish people in Exod 19:6; Deut 32:28, cf. 32:45; Josh 10:12-13; Isa 1:4; Isa 26:2; Jer 31:36; Zeph 2:9.4 Note especially Jer 31:36: "'If this fixed order departs from before me,' declares the LORD, 'Then the offspring [lit. "seed"] of Israel also shall cease from being a nation (goy) before me forever.'" In the Greek Apostolic Writings, the word ethnos refers to the Jewish people in Luk 7:5; 23:2; John 11:48-52; 18:35; Acts 10:22; 24:2,10,17; 26:4; 28:19; 1 Cor 10:18; Phil 3:5. The first contention, then, that goy or goyim is always translated as Gentile or Gentiles is patently incorrect.

Because of this error, Wootten and Koniuchowsky argue that all the blessings promised to Abraham's and Joseph's physical heirs are in fact blessings promised to Gentiles. But because the premise is wrong (that goy always means Gentile), the conclusion is also wrong.

Dust of the Earth

Another major cornerstone of this teaching is that social-historical Israel, as it is traditionally perceived, cannot possibly fulfill the promises of physical multiplicity that was to equal "the sand of the sea," "the dust of the earth," or the "stars of the sky." Such a hyper-literalist reading of these phrases, which rules out their common-sense interpretation, ignores the scriptural record. For 2 Chron 1:9 states clearly that the people over whom King Solomon reigned [israel] were "a people as numerous as the dust of the earth." Isa 10:22 also refers to the people of Israel being "as the sand of the sea" in number. Recognizing hyperbole in the Bible is not a matter of "spiritualizing" the promises as Wootten and Koniuchowsky contend. It is a matter of being knowledgeable about the rhetorical conventions used by the biblical writers.

Parallel Universes

Fundamental to Wootten's and Koniuchowsky's claims is a suspect view of history. Wootten argues that the northern Israelite tribes taken captive by Assyria in 722 B.C.E. were "never once

[Guest yod]

The root of the Ephramite movement is bad....and therefore the whole tree is producing bad fruit.

However....

Individual congregations almost always vary from the original teachings of Wooten and Kunichowski enough to where I could find some areas of agreement.

To me...it seems like a pride issue...it always boils down to a sublte form of envy.

They want sooo bad to be considered Israelites that they refuse to consider that God has blessed the gentiles who are joined to Israel's covenants and promises equally.

Most of the Ephramites I know (and that's a bunch!) are extremely nice people who are humble about their faith....but they have this one blind spot that I just can't agree with.

It just can't be proven. This goes farther than what the Word actually says.

They say this belief isn't all that important to them...but them build an entire denominational-type movement on it???

[Yahsway]

Yes Shiloh, Ive read that, but that is just half the story. The Truth about all Israel, A refutation of the I.M.J.A. Position Papaer on the two Houses of Israel is also in print and is a point by point written response to "The Ephramite Error".

I do not as stated before claim to be "jewish". I do however claim to be an Israelite, and whether by Bloodline thru Abraham or bloodline thru Yeshua, no matter. Only God knows, and will one day bring the "whole house" togethere again.

Paul calls returning gentiles the house of Israel by implication, in Rom 9:25-26.He refrences Hosea 1 to identify the ones returning as gentiles. Hosea never wrote about gentiles, but did write about Israelits from the north becoming children of Elohim in the latter days.

Then in Romans 9:27 in an immediate follow-up to Hosea 1 refrence, he affirms that returning gentiles are the sand of the sea Israelits(Ephraim), that Isaiah prophesied would only partially recieve the gospel.

Peter does the same thing in 1 Peter 2:9-10. Peter ascribes verse 10 as a literal fulfillment to the former northerners, who are now the royal priesthood Nation. This verse 9-10 is two fold. He calls born again disciples those who were Lo-Ami

(not my people) and now become Ami (my people), those who had no compassion (Lo-Ruhamah) now have (Ruhamah). Both these quotes from Hosea 1:8-9 make the clearest of correlations of the non-jewish disciples returning from the nations as Northern-Israel.

As far as the Land of Israel, Zech 10:10 best describes what I believe Is The Fathers plan to bring All Israel togethere "until no more room is found for them".

This is all done thru God, not man. Gods Spirit is calling those of Ephriam, I know because His spirit has been calling me for a long time. Most christians I come in contact with do not want to have anything to do with "jewish things", some even stating to me how sad for all those jews who will die at the hands of the anti-christ.

Some messianic congregations I have attended act almost in the same manner. They are happy to take your money, but if you are not a "jewish believer" they to act like they do not want to associate with "gentile" believers.

There is no balance in this. We are all One Tribal people under the Banner of Yeshua. Thats why I was so interested in the DNA. It maybe thru that that Ephraim will be established as returning Israel, but I tend to believe that it will be by His Spirit.

"In those days and in that time", says the Lord, "the children of Israel shall come, They and the children of Judah togethere; With continual weeping they shall come, and seek the Lord their God.

I think we have more in common than not. But, i could be wrong. I do not consider myself a "gentile", "a jew" but and Israelite. blessings to All of You.

[bad biker]

The motif of the "blind Jews," a long-standing, standard motif of Christian anti-Jewish rhetoric, is there also.23 Wootten states, "They cannot hear. They cannot see. Until the Lord lifts the veil

[apothanein kerdos]

stupid jews....

btw yod, I found out from another messianic jew on campus that there is a messianic congregation near here....

[Guest yod]

there about 10 in the area.

...and most of them are good.

[Guest yod]

The motif of the "blind Jews," a long-standing, standard motif of Christian anti-Jewish rhetoric, is there also.23 Wootten states, "They cannot hear. They cannot see. Until the Lord lifts the veil

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yahsway,

I wasn't going to speak up, but you keep insisting that somehow the Gentiles become Israelites - "whether by Bloodline thru Abraham or bloodline thru Yeshua, no matter". Even on the surface you should be able to see the error of this. Abraham is our "father in the Faith" and we ARE NOT necessarily of HIS "bloodline", nor are we of "Jesus' " bloodline, and he says:

John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

No reference to the "bloodline" here. You are presently blinded by this error of the Ephraimites and thus you ADD to the scriptures intonations supporting this doctrinal error instead of reading them and comparing them with like scriptures.

Romans 9-11, if you read the intro to each chapter, is talking about the salvation of the Jews, although there may be -some- application to the gentiles, it is STILL ALL ABOUT THE JEWS. Jews of the line of Jacob, brothers of the flesh of Paul.

AND if you examine all that the NT has to say about Israel, there is NO further split in the Kingdoms but all 12 tribes are accounted for and addressed. Even in Revelation ALL 12 are addressed and not noted as being separated. You need to look into these things for YOUR own edification.

I believe Shiloh357 and Yod have it right and you would do well to listen to them.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

thank you, DE

Paul calls returning gentiles the house of Israel by implication, in Rom 9:25-26.He refrences Hosea 1 to identify the ones returning as gentiles. Hosea never wrote about gentiles, but did write about Israelits from the north becoming children of Elohim in the latter days.

But he was talking to those physical sons of Abraham when He said "not my people" and disowning them until a day when He would bring them back.

You could say "maybe" or "possibly" you are Ephramite....but there is no way to prove it and therefore it is crazy to build an entire movement on that.

Then in Romans 9:27 in an immediate follow-up to Hosea 1 refrence, he affirms that returning gentiles are the sand of the sea Israelits(Ephraim), that Isaiah prophesied would only partially recieve the gospel.

Romans 9:27 is NOT referring to gentiles. It doesn't say anything about gentiles in that verse...where did you get that idea?

but a couple verses later it makes a distinction between Israel and gentiles when it says;

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law

Why is it still calling gentiles who have attained the Kingdom "gentiles" if they are now Israel or Ephramites? Don't you see how easily the logic breaks down?

Peter does the same thing in 1 Peter 2:9-10. Peter ascribes verse 10 as a literal fulfillment to the former northerners, who are now the royal priesthood Nation. This verse 9-10 is two fold. He calls born again disciples those who were Lo-Ami

(not my people) and now become Ami (my people), those who had no compassion (Lo-Ruhamah) now have (Ruhamah). Both these quotes from Hosea 1:8-9 make the clearest of correlations of the non-jewish disciples returning from the nations as Northern-Israel.

10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.

11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

OK..I agree that aliens and strangers is speaking to non-jews only...but...this doesn't mean that when Peter called them NOT "A" PEOPLE he was necessarily referring to the same group Paul or Isaiah are referring to in other books at other times. Remember, Peter was the first to go to a gentile.

The gentiles were first called "christians" at Antioch. Why didn't they call them Ephramites or Israelites then?

I think you have to force a piece here to fit an fragment there to make this Ephramites stuff work and that always sends up a red flag to me.