Reason with me on this...

[childeye]

name='enoob57' timestamp='1302285532' post='1665834']

It is with this Scripture (it is not directed at you but the reasoning of Scripture)

John 8:44

44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because

there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

We know in the garden lies were used by the serpent unto Eve... therefore satan had fallen from righteousness-> for he is the father of all lies!

I see your point, Steven. I've never considered this, nor has it ever been brought to my mind. I appreciate your also pointing out that you are not directing John 8:44 at me. Regarding that, I wish to say it is not my intention to have to make you dodge any misunderstandings that may occur, but I am thankful you apply the effort to avoid them. This tells me a little more about you which I find encouraging. Regarding John 8:44, I agree we were deceived in the garden, and I regard the fall of man as being kicked out of the garden, after losing innocence. The loss of innocence through disobedience being the cause thereof. When I look at this scripture, I see, "The devil does not stand in truth because there is no Truth in him, he speaks from his own nature." So his nature is to lie and because he has no truth he cannot stand in truth. I therefore do not presume to say he could have said the truth if in him there is no truth, nor do I presume that he had the option to go against his nature. Let's look at Job 41. Canst thou draw out Leviathan with a hook? Two things here, 1) This implys we are helpless to rid society of the devil, only God can. 2) God would use a hook as if catching a fish with bait. Job 41:24, His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone. The devil has no ability to feel for others. The Nether millstone is the hardest stone, used for grinding wheat into fine flour.Job 41:33-34, Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride. The devil has no fear of any high thing, no other creature is like him on earth, and he rules in the proud. Seeing that Satan is this way from the onset of his creation I do not see any way he could do anything less than lie and therefore I do not reckon a fall as you see it, but rather a purpose proposed by God from the beginning, that in the end will glorify God. For Satans demise is his pride, which God will use to hook him with. Inno cence would be a great bait since pride would love to impress the innocent. I do not wish to argue semantics with you, so if you wish to consider Satan's fall before the garden I will not contend with you about this. In my mind his demise was inevitable, even as what is corruptible will be swallowed up by that which is incorruptible. The devil will be a feast for the birds of the air when he is pulled out of the waters and beached.

By this Scripture (below) we know God did not have anything to do with His choice in rebellion against God

Ezek 28:14-15

14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

The iniquity of Satan is pride, for pride fosters rebellion.

It is with established fact of Scripture that satan in order to be the father of lies... then the first recorded Scripture of a lie-> satan's

fall must have already occured or else there is another father and no such Scripture exists.... rejecting this means your reject the

facts Scripture has put forth! You know what Scripture and the importance of every jot and tittle is to God - all will be fulfilled!

I do not dispute Satan being the Father of lies, Steven. But I wouldn't say it was established fact he fell when he first lied. That's just me. Perhaps you're right. I have no problem however saying he was a liar from the beginning because he had no truth. Yes all will be fulfilled.

However we see satan still granted entrance into Heaven in the Book of Job

Job 1:6-7

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

7 And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the

earth, and from walking back and forth on it."

So yes 'the fall of satan' and 'the casting out of Heaven' are two separate events and distinct in times and purposes...

I'm happy to agree upon this that we may put it to rest, for my intention from the beginning was to address the issue that Satan was yet in heaven accusing men before God and, on earth accusing God before men. Remember, there was no intercessor for man prior to the New Testament. My point is to say that Satan was the fomentor of doubt between both man and God, and the Christ is the reconciliation between the two. AHHHHHHHHH... what a betrothal we find ourselves in. Is it good or is it baaaaaad? Our image of God will make all the difference, and for God, His image of man will make all the difference. The Christ is both of these by God's grace.

This is the stuff I was talking about as being a gnostic spirit... The Holy Spirit taught me - how do you know it was the Holy Spirit?

This is an excellent question. I will answer directly. I know because; He speaks a self-evident Truth to my reasoning using my own words against me, revealing my hypocrisy and destroying my pride. He does this through the second commandment of love others as I would want to be loved. He points out to me when I am rude or impatient convicting me in my conscience and turns me around in repentance. He gives witness to the Christ revealing the loving nature of God and causes me to love God with all my heart mind and soul. He causes me to want to be like Christ and quickens the Spirit of His love inside me. He gives me Joy in being charitable even in the midst of my poverty. And in my poverty He brings forth thankfulness unto God for the smallest and least of my blessings. He reminds me what I was like without Him and shows me why I must turn the other cheek, pray for those who despise me, love my enemies, and only return good for evil. He comforts me in my tribulation and counsels me in perservering in Godly Love. He gives me insight through discerning spirits so I know what needs to be addressed in helping others. He tells me when to pray, who to pray for, how to pray, and what to pray for. He gives me light to see the lies of Satan and He makes me more cunning than serpents but genle like a lamb. He gives me hope for better things and comforts me in the midst of the storm. He removes my impurites and conquers my flesh with self-control. He is my righteousness, the gift for my honesty and the source of my humility, He is God.

I see no gain in aquiring any knowledge that puffs me up into thinking I am any better than he who has never read a word of scripture. Here is the error-> you see knowledge of Scripture as something that can puff up but in fact the more you know of God and His glory the more one is of a broken spirit and contrite of heart for His perfection is the evidence of our lack of true reflected image back to Him! You actually attack knowing the Scriptures in one sentence and Say you love them in another.... Read what God's says of His Word

I agree with your excellent statement about reflecting back to Him. For this reason I preach only the freewill Jesus preached, not the freewill Satan preaches. I never said however that scriptures taken in true understanding puffs one up. I said I see no gain in acquiring any knowledge that puffs me up into thinking I'm better than others. This is directly referring to the teaching that we have a "freewill" to choose to disobey God which is the beginning of, and reason for, our discourse. For if I were to say I do all these things that are Godly because I choose to whenever I please, I would not be giving glory to the Spirit of God inside me. This is the pride in false piety where Christ becomes the stumbling block for the children of Satan.

Take this journey in The Psalm of His Word:

Ps 17:4, Ps 18:30, Ps 33:4, Ps 33:6

Ps 56:4, Ps 56:10, Ps 56:10, Ps 68:11

Ps 89:34, Ps 103:20, Ps 103:20, Ps 105:8

Ps 105:19, Ps 105:19, Ps 105:28

Ps 106:24, Ps 107:20, Ps 119:9

Ps 119:11, Ps 119:16, Ps 119:17

Ps 119:25, Ps 119:28, Ps 119:38

Ps 119:41, Ps 119:42, Ps 119:43

Ps 119:49, Ps 119:50, Ps 119:58

Ps 119:65, Ps 119:67, Ps 119:74

Ps 119:76, Ps 119:81, Ps 119:82

Ps 119:89, Ps 119:101, Ps 119:105

Ps 119:107, Ps 119:114, Ps 119:116

Ps 119:123, Ps 119:133, Ps 119:140

Ps 119:147, Ps 119:148, Ps 119:154

Ps 119:158, Ps 119:160, Ps 119:161

Ps 119:162, Ps 119:169, Ps 119:170

Ps 119:172, Ps 130:5, Ps 138:2

Ps 139:4, Ps 147:15, Ps 147:18

Ps 147:19, Ps 148:8

Ps 138:2

2 I will worship toward Your holy temple,

And praise Your name

For Your lovingkindness and Your truth;

For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.

NKJV

Thank you for the great read. And thank you for the love that is seen through the fact that you gathered all of these scriptures for my sake. Here I will simply reiterate that there is a written word that testifies to the Spiritual Word. Let us not argue over this. All these Psalms testify to the Spiritual Word even as they are inspired by that same Spirit. David wrote these psalms reflecting that sentiment. He was deeply moved by God's communique. These sentiments are no different than my own. I am a musician. I can play other's music and can appreciate other's music even many times more than my own. But I love to write my own music and play my own music, and I praise God even for that. For He gives me inspiration to write. Notice these Psalms you provided. They are all a man speaking to God, not God speaking to man. They are the Holy Spirit nonetheless. I have my own things to say that come from inside me, even as I walk my own walk with God.

Gnosticism is the idea of an elevated spiritual mind that has no Scripture support yet is claimed to be from God... How simply to understand this is not of God= is that God requires us to test all things by the Scriptures!

Because many people who head off in the mysticism with no Scriptural support do so to their own peril! Larry the most important is God's Word if we are to find our way into God's pleasure and use... Love Steven

Steven, I am not a gnostic as you purport. I did not elevate myself above anybody who wrote the scriptures. I have the Holy Spirit living in me, I gave you testimony to that. When the apostles recieved the Spirit of Truth, they didn't run and pull out their bibles to test it. THEY KNEW IT. The scripture speaks of two righteousnesses, one of the letter and one of the Spirit. I gave you testimony to that. Now it's my turn to ask you a question about the Letter. I'd appreciate your honest response even as I have no doubt about your ability to speak forthrightly to me. When Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:6, "the letter kills", what did he mean?

[childeye]

Sorry if thats not what your saying, you and childeye seem to have the same type of theology. There have always been laws first set upon the world to work in order for man to live here, God gave Adam and Eve laws, tend the garden, don't eat of the tree. The time between Adam leaving the garden and the flood there were laws from godly men, Abraham knew to tithe to the King of Salem so God must have talked to him often. God has always set a standard for His children and when He called a congregation, a nation out of Himself by which to show the gentile pagan world His power and glory He gave them laws that would set them apart and teach them how to live among themselves and the world. Same standards God calls upon us today.

The whole of the OT is not about satans influence as it is mans unablity to govern and rule himself. Satan doesn't take a more prominate role in the NT, and I politely disagree with this statement of yours, "So I say much of the writings are based on the influence Satan has on us", you take out mans responsiblity and give too much credit to satan. Yes he has influence on this world, he and his fallen bunch but does not make anyone do anything so the responsiblity is on us and not satan. The Tanakh was written at the instruction of God, it is Gods words to man through prophets how to live, what pleases God, and God even graciously outlined the end of the age in the beginning of the book for us. How are the prophets writings base on satanic influence?

You asked, "Without Satan how will we know how not to act?" God sets up His standards in the beginning, listen to my voice obey Me and He blesses us abundantly. Adam knew how to act without satans influence because he listen to the word of God, so can we. Satan does not have influence over those who have Gods light yet we keep one foot in the world and one foot in His and when it comes to judgment day is satan going to be standing next to you and everyone else accepting half the blame and punishment for us, I don't think it works that way.

It has to be made clear to man that his influence is in the world and that even with rules we are incapable of completely resisting that influence, we are totally helpless and need another way to come into the presence of God.

God calls mans hearts the most wicked above all things, not satan and through the righteous rules of God, through His instructions and His Spirit we can overcome all things even the influence of satan. I am not totally helpless at all unless I choose to leave Gods light with Yeshua all things are possible. God defines righteousness, the fruits of the Spirit are all things that come through His Torah or instructions, His ways teach us to love, to walk with others, His instructions help us to fight satans influence. So we see things differently and thats ok also none of have the whole truth of anything except that God loves us and wants us to come to Him in all things, that Yeshua died and was resurrected and now is our High Priest and He will return, we can be assured that God will keep all His promises to all of His children who heed and follow His voice.

shalom,

Mizz

I'm sorry Mizz if I have troubled you with my theology. I think I could have worded things differently. Putting aside the issue of whether or not Satan and his angels were the adminstrators of the Old Testament, I would hope you would understand one thing about me. I love the laws of God, I simply believe there is a Spirit that comes from God, that is necessary to make a man able to walk in those laws, and even have no need of laws. To be above reproach. To become a child of God, not by our efforts, but by the gift of His spirit through belief in His Christ. I believe that is what the New Testament is all about. I hoped you might understand that the concept of a freewill as most understand the term, stands in the way of this revelation. For one does not seek nor desire what one does not believe is required. I believe that the image of God one has, rules their reasoning pertaining to moral character. There is the image sold to us by Satan in the Garden of God., that one being a corrupt image conjured by a corrupt mind. And then there is the Christ, the True Image of God. I hope you don't hate me. It matters to me what you think of me, and I would never want to misrepresent Christ. Love Larry.

[enoob57]

When Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:6, "the letter kills", what did he mean?

Background to determine context of Scripture:

There were 4 letters written to the Corinthians 2 were not chosen for God's cannon of Scripture by being lost-

A portion quote from Willmington's Bible Handbook

2 Corinthians is actually Paul's fourth letter to the Corinthian church. The first letter, dealing with the problem of fornication in the church, has been lost (1 Cor 5:9). The second letter (our 1 Corinthians) dealt with various problems he had become aware of. Paul wrote a third letter to the church at Corinth that was harsh and disciplinary in nature (see 2:3-4; 7:8-9). This letter has been lost as well; but according to a report Paul received from Titus, it apparently accomplished its purpose (7:6-8), leading Paul to write this fourth letter (2 Cor.), in which he comforted those who had gotten themselves right with God (1-9) and strongly defended his apostleship against some who were opposing his authority (10-13).

(from Willmington's Bible Handbook by Harold Willmington Copyright

[mizzdy]

I'm sorry Mizz if I have troubled you with my theology. I think I could have worded things differently. Putting aside the issue of whether or not Satan and his angels were the adminstrators of the Old Testament, I would hope you would understand one thing about me. I love the laws of God, I simply believe there is a Spirit that comes from God, that is necessary to make a man able to walk in those laws, and even have no need of laws. To be above reproach. To become a child of God, not by our efforts, but by the gift of His spirit through belief in His Christ. I believe that is what the New Testament is all about. I hoped you might understand that the concept of a freewill as most understand the term, stands in the way of this revelation. For one does not seek nor desire what one does not believe is required. I believe that the image of God one has, rules their reasoning pertaining to moral character. There is the image sold to us by Satan in the Garden of God., that one being a corrupt image conjured by a corrupt mind. And then there is the Christ, the True Image of God. I hope you don't hate me. It matters to me what you think of me, and I would never want to misrepresent Christ. Love Larry.

What laws would the Spirit be writing on your heart but the laws of God? You say you believe there is a Spriit that comes from God, well thats exactly what the scriptures tell us don't they that when Messiah went and sat at the right hand of the Father God sent us His Spirit to help us walk in His righteous ways, not new laws or new ways but the ways already set forth in scripture. When we let Him guide us by His will it is His ways we learn in, if we are walking in His commandments we produce the fruits of the Spirit because His Torah or instructions are what lead us into knowing how to love, how to love Him, how to love our fellow man. You cannot have laws and then no laws one is either lawful or lawless so if you believe His Spirit is leading you into His commandments how do they just go away? The biblical idea of adoption is the idea of an apprentice learning a new trade, spends years learning the trade, knowing the rule of trade who then finally goes out on his own yet fails to keep up with the trade he then needs a refresher course and goes back to the master to do that. We can never be completely faithful in any of Gods laws so we need them in our hearts constantly so we can continue to walk in the ways our Master wants us to.

What is seen in the garden is that living by His word produces good fruit and living by another word or seed produces bad fruit, the whole bible is based on the family, a piece of land and a home, God structures all His instruction in argricultural settings, the wheat and tares, parables of land owners, we see the same in the OT. After Yeshua went to become our High Priest in the heavenlies the apostles seeded congregations and then sent letters out mostly in corrections of what was going wrong, they are meant as reminders also that Messiah did not come to change, abolish but to fulfill all things for us to show us how to walk with Him He is the perfect embodiement of the Torah. Why would you even think of people hating you let alone me? Just because we have a different views does not constitute hate nor even dislike! We are discussing nothing more, I don't hate anyone, not you, not anyone. If you are really worried about being hated you might want to develop a thicker skin for discussion boards. And in some ways no matter how hard we try we all mess up, many of us have many different views, I love Gods Torah and see that we are to keep His Feasts for all generations most here do not see that but we all agree to disagree and none of us hate each other because we hold different views on that.

shalom,

Mizz

[childeye]

When Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:6, "the letter kills", what did he mean?

Background to determine context of Scripture:

There were 4 letters written to the Corinthians 2 were not chosen for God's cannon of Scripture by being lost-

A portion quote from Willmington's Bible Handbook

2 Corinthians is actually Paul's fourth letter to the Corinthian church. The first letter, dealing with the problem of fornication in the church, has been lost (1 Cor 5:9). The second letter (our 1 Corinthians) dealt with various problems he had become aware of. Paul wrote a third letter to the church at Corinth that was harsh and disciplinary in nature (see 2:3-4; 7:8-9). This letter has been lost as well; but according to a report Paul received from Titus, it apparently accomplished its purpose (7:6-8), leading Paul to write this fourth letter (2 Cor.), in which he comforted those who had gotten themselves right with God (1-9) and strongly defended his apostleship against some who were opposing his authority (10-13).

(from Willmington's Bible Handbook by Harold Willmington Copyright

[childeye]

I'm sorry Mizz if I have troubled you with my theology. I think I could have worded things differently. Putting aside the issue of whether or not Satan and his angels were the adminstrators of the Old Testament, I would hope you would understand one thing about me. I love the laws of God, I simply believe there is a Spirit that comes from God, that is necessary to make a man able to walk in those laws, and even have no need of laws. To be above reproach. To become a child of God, not by our efforts, but by the gift of His spirit through belief in His Christ. I believe that is what the New Testament is all about. I hoped you might understand that the concept of a freewill as most understand the term, stands in the way of this revelation. For one does not seek nor desire what one does not believe is required. I believe that the image of God one has, rules their reasoning pertaining to moral character. There is the image sold to us by Satan in the Garden of God., that one being a corrupt image conjured by a corrupt mind. And then there is the Christ, the True Image of God. I hope you don't hate me. It matters to me what you think of me, and I would never want to misrepresent Christ. Love Larry.

What laws would the Spirit be writing on your heart but the laws of God? You say you believe there is a Spriit that comes from God, well thats exactly what the scriptures tell us don't they that when Messiah went and sat at the right hand of the Father God sent us His Spirit to help us walk in His righteous ways, not new laws or new ways but the ways already set forth in scripture. When we let Him guide us by His will it is His ways we learn in, if we are walking in His commandments we produce the fruits of the Spirit because His Torah or instructions are what lead us into knowing how to love, how to love Him, how to love our fellow man. You cannot have laws and then no laws one is either lawful or lawless so if you believe His Spirit is leading you into His commandments how do they just go away? The biblical idea of adoption is the idea of an apprentice learning a new trade, spends years learning the trade, knowing the rule of trade who then finally goes out on his own yet fails to keep up with the trade he then needs a refresher course and goes back to the master to do that. We can never be completely faithful in any of Gods laws so we need them in our hearts constantly so we can continue to walk in the ways our Master wants us to.

What is seen in the garden is that living by His word produces good fruit and living by another word or seed produces bad fruit, the whole bible is based on the family, a piece of land and a home, God structures all His instruction in argricultural settings, the wheat and tares, parables of land owners, we see the same in the OT. After Yeshua went to become our High Priest in the heavenlies the apostles seeded congregations and then sent letters out mostly in corrections of what was going wrong, they are meant as reminders also that Messiah did not come to change, abolish but to fulfill all things for us to show us how to walk with Him He is the perfect embodiement of the Torah. Why would you even think of people hating you let alone me? Just because we have a different views does not constitute hate nor even dislike! We are discussing nothing more, I don't hate anyone, not you, not anyone. If you are really worried about being hated you might want to develop a thicker skin for discussion boards. And in some ways no matter how hard we try we all mess up, many of us have many different views, I love Gods Torah and see that we are to keep His Feasts for all generations most here do not see that but we all agree to disagree and none of us hate each other because we hold different views on that.

shalom,

Mizz

Thanks for the response Mizz, I think. I do not want a thick skin, for God has been working hard in my life to get rid of my calloused heart with much patience and long suffering. Yes and it is now so soft and tender. Oh what empathy I am now capable of through Christ. And it is not my intention to crowd your space, so I won't come too close. Your view, my view, his view, her view, our view, their view; Alas, God's view. Why agree to disagree when there is only One Spirit of Truth? Christ came boldly claiming he knew it all, pushing his views, causing division, telling people what to believe, until finally people Killed him because he simply couldn't agree to disagree.

[enoob57]

Dear Steven, I am impressed with your answer. I was looking for a simple answer, but you've put forth a very detailed explanation. I especially liked your last line. Yes it is confusing for many who don't understand. Hidden in the semantics of words is a playground for Satan to cause confusion and division through misunderstanding.

There are many phrases you write that indicate your mistrust? or disdain? for words... Had it not been for The Fathers Will and The Word of God which has come and The Holy Spirit who defines each and every Word that is written down I would be lost in the infinite reality that surrounds our every direction... therefore The Word of God is my only foundation with which to understand all things pertaining life and Godliness! What satan does in his perversions of it (The Word)no longer distracts me for in Christ I give him no place! So when you called My Father's Law sourced in evil and vacillate on that point now to say "I love the laws of God" to mizzdy... you are suspect to me yes!

And while I understand and you understand, with all your concerns about my being a gnostic, I wasn't sure what to think about you. How shall I reconcile your ascribing to me, foolish thought, emotions and heart supremacy?

When ever a person writes or says something contrary to Scripture and that it is based on the spiritual teachings within them that is a gnostic spirit and why Paul warns us to this-

1 John 4:1-2

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,

NKJV

John MacArthur makes a good clear witness

GUIDELINES FOR HOW TO TEST

1 John 4:2-6

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (4:2-6)

John sets forth three familiar tests for determining whether a teacher and his message reflect the Spirit of God or the spirit of Satan. These tests are theological (Does the person confess Jesus Christ?), behavioral (Does the person manifest evidence of the fruit of righteousness?), and presuppositional (Is the person committed to the Word of God?). True teachers are thus characterized by a confession of the divine Lord, a possession of the divine life, and a profession of the divine law. Those who fail to exhibit these traits prove that they are not from God.

(from The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, Copyright

[childeye]

Dear Steven, I am impressed with your answer. I was looking for a simple answer, but you've put forth a very detailed explanation. I especially liked your last line. Yes it is confusing for many who don't understand. Hidden in the semantics of words is a playground for Satan to cause confusion and division through misunderstanding.

There are many phrases you write that indicate your mistrust? or disdain? for words... Had it not been for The Fathers Will and The Word of God which has come and The Holy Spirit who defines each and every Word that is written down I would be lost in the infinite reality that surrounds our every direction... therefore The Word of God is my only foundation with which to understand all things pertaining life and Godliness! What satan does in his perversions of it (The Word)no longer distracts me for in Christ I give him no place! So when you called My Father's Law sourced in evil and vacillate on that point now to say "I love the laws of God" to mizzdy... you are suspect to me yes!

And while I understand and you understand, with all your concerns about my being a gnostic, I wasn't sure what to think about you. How shall I reconcile your ascribing to me, foolish thought, emotions and heart supremacy?

When ever a person writes or says something contrary to Scripture and that it is based on the spiritual teachings within them that is a gnostic spirit and why Paul warns us to this-

1 John 4:1-2

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,

NKJV

John MacArthur makes a good clear witness

GUIDELINES FOR HOW TO TEST

1 John 4:2-6

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (4:2-6)

John sets forth three familiar tests for determining whether a teacher and his message reflect the Spirit of God or the spirit of Satan. These tests are theological (Does the person confess Jesus Christ?), behavioral (Does the person manifest evidence of the fruit of righteousness?), and presuppositional (Is the person committed to the Word of God?). True teachers are thus characterized by a confession of the divine Lord, a possession of the divine life, and a profession of the divine law. Those who fail to exhibit these traits prove that they are not from God.

(from The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, Copyright © Moody Press and John MacArthur, Jr., 1983-2007.)

So in your clear and un-Biblical statements you have made... says you are relying on something other than the foundation of God's Word He has given us to determine all things to their conclusion

1 Tim 2:2-7

2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle — I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying — a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

NKJV

2 Peter 1:2-3

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,

NKJV

all the Children of God know this comes solely from the written text of God's Word through the teaching of The Holy Spirit and both are perfectly aligned to God's Purpose of Holy Living...

You recognize that the Holy requirement of God's law could not be accomplished, because of weakness of the flesh, so why have you stood in the way of my preaching the Gospel that sets people free from the slavery of sin?

You cannot speak the Gospel to an ear that is not in total repentance for who they are and likewise the world they dwell in... for only the righteous understanding of Holy Father and His requirements taught by His Law can shine the light into the darkness we are in. His Son, that light, of perfect obedience in the weakness of flesh did obey it fully!!! This is the foundation of the Gospel Christ The Perfect Lamb Of God In Flesh died for the sins of the whole world... AND a Perfect Holy Righteous Father raised Him Up unto Life so that In Him I also know I have Life In Him....

What we cannot do for ourselves He has done for us In Himself in the flesh... this has given me ability to live in the Spirit and not the flesh of death and by crying out to The Son to save me I now have a Home that is not any longer here but there with Him and when I arrive He shall place me in a body that has never disobeyed Him Forever... May God Be Praised!!!

Already there are many here who believe men's wills to be free to accomplish the Law without Christ. Why have you not stood with me, or am I the one missing something, and I should have been standing with you?

satan hates the choice God has given His image for satan cannot be any other than a liar and the father of them and he hates the things of God and the things God has given us!

I humbly asked where the scriptures teach a freewill, as in men have the option to obey or disobey God, which is contradictory to the Truth that men are weak in the flesh. Or shall I say, I humbly asked where the scriptures teach a freewill, as in men have the option to obey or disobey God, which is contradictory to the Truth that men are blind in the soul?

We have by God's design come full circle to the original OP that I started... understand you will be judged according to choice in everything...

Why are we at odds?

do you still have this question after all of the above? Love Steven

Yes I do have a question. Shouldn't we love others as we would love ourselves? Would you like to have someone take something you said and twist it to say something else? So that they claim you said something horrible, even blasphemous? Now on my part, if I had misunderstood what someone else had said, and in my misunderstanding I said they had said something horrible and blasphemous, would I want someone to call me a slanderer when in fact all I did was misunderstand? My answer is no I wouldn't. I would want them to come to me and clear up any misunderstanding. Notice how you say above you give Satan no place, but yet you do by insisting I said things I never said. Then you further the weight on my cross by saying it is a gnostic spirit contrary to scripture which I speak out of, and all this based on your made up spin on what was actually said. I have been patient so far because I do not want to call you a slanderer, even as I wouldn't want to be called one. And so in good faith I have reckoned you have misunderstood what I said. This has now come full circle so that after explaining to you that you have misunderstood me, and that I have attempted to correct you by telling you I love the laws of God. You now call that vascillating from what I said before. To be clear, and now and for the third time, I never said the laws of God were sourced in evil. So if now you wish to say I said those things I will be forced to count it as wanton slander and I don't want to have to do that. But whatever, we all have to love our enemies right? Praise be to God and His Son whose love is beyond our pettiness.

Edited April 12, 2011 by childeye

[enoob57]

Yes I do have a question. Shouldn't we love others as we would love ourselves? Would you like to have someone take something you said and twist it to say something else? So that they claim you said something horrible, even blasphemous? Now on my part, if I had misunderstood what someone else had said, and in my misunderstanding I said they had said something horrible and blasphemous, would I want someone to call me a slanderer when in fact all I did was misunderstand? My answer is no I wouldn't. I would want them to come to me and clear up any misunderstanding. Notice how you say above you give Satan no place, but yet you do by insisting I said things I never said. Then you further the weight on my cross by saying it is a gnostic spirit contrary to scripture which I speak out of, and all this based on your made up spin on what was actually said. I have been patient so far because I do not want to call you a slanderer, even as I wouldn't want to be called one. And so in good faith I have reckoned you have misunderstood what I said. This has now come full circle so that after explaining to you that you have misunderstood me, and that I have attempted to correct you by telling you I love the laws of God. You now call that vacillating from what I said before. To be clear, and now and for the third time, I never said the laws of God were sourced in evil. So if now you wish to say I said those things I will be forced to count it as wanton slander and I don't want to have to do that. But whatever, we all have to love our enemies right? Praise be to God and His Son whose love is beyond our pettiness.

Ok here are some quotes of yours:

there are two Covenants one of works and one of faith. One that thinks they make themselves righteous through obedience to written commandments, and one that knows they are made righteous by God's Spirit living in them through Faith. One is Satanic in origin for the spirit of it contains both temptation and accusation. The other inspires a Spirit of self sacrifice, forbearance and forgiveness

Pasted from

two covenants Law and Grace... " One is satanic in origin" / "The other inspires a Spirit of self sacrifice"

Satan proposed there was a choice in the Garden of Eden when he said we could disobey God and yet live. He implied that through the knowledge of good and evil we could be righteous of our own accord being able to know the ways of good and evil. Man not knowing God is their light and goodness, that Love made a man righteous and not knowledge, were deceived, and have been ever since. That's why there are two righteousnesses, one of works and one by grace through faith.

Pasted from

God gave choice trees could eat from and tree not to eat from- This is the freewill given to His image that yo do not see.... We chose to eat from the tree we should not from and did eat the leaven of sin... Larry lies have no substance for God is in truth but not in lies! In the presence of God lies will disappear in the true light and liars will be standing before Him without excuse or reason for disobeying Him other than they chose to believe lie which is now gone and the truth their knee will bow and confess Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God The Father...

What I am saying is the Old Testament was under the administration of Angels at a time when Satan, Then known as Lucifer, was the covering Cherub, Ezekial 28. As you know, the dragon in Revelations 12:4 awaits the birth of the King of kings so as to devour him. On Earth this would be a spiritual power working though Herod and the High Priests, through both religious and secular powers on earth but spiritually answering to Jerusalem on earth. Satan is this dragon therefore over the principalities and powers mentioned in Colossians 2:15. For these powers under Satan, this dragon, crucified the Son of God who was without sin, and vanity was exposed as a pious fraud before all heaven and earth. The law that condemned the sinless one then became void. The Old Testament was not of faith but of works wherein is boasting, which is the same spirit of Satan who glories in his beauty given by God. The Old Testament therefore became a snare for Satan. When I use the term Satanic, it is this vain self-righteous spirit that crucified the Christ under the authority of the Old Testament, and was then cast out of heaven as is seen in revelations 12:10. For we who are set free from the bondage through the Old Testament by the blood of Christ no longer answer to the Jerusalem on Earth but now answer to the Jerusalem in heaven. So the scripture offers tangible proof that the Old Testament and the law of God gave power to sin,(Romans 6:14) and was used by Satan to condemn (Collossians 2:15, Revelations 12:10). My purpose in starting this thread is to point out that men are slaves of sin and the Old Testament verifies this through the inability of any man to keep it. The New Testament shows that righteousness is a gift of God by grace through faith, this changes all perspective on a reasoning that is greater than the one built upon the knowledge of good and evil through which our minds were made corrupt. The Truth That God is our light and to think we can be good or bad, through our volition is falsehood and vanity, taking God for granted. Had the Old Testament, which was based upon this assumption that men could obey it and attain righteousness, been able to save mankind, we would not need a New one.

Pasted from

this is garbage and so far from Biblical truth and knowledge of Scripture that it can only be considered gnostic in nature.... This is a twisted up mess and you wrote it... you say the problem is with my misunderstanding Ok benefit of doubt explain all this in detail for me please! Take away my misunderstanding. Love Steven

This added after the night of rest and the thought of needs for you...Larry! Because I know what you have written you have passion in it- it must come from your heart and because it is not aligned within the written Word you are trusting that coming from your heart as from God and yet God has warned us of this

Jer 17:9-10

9 "The heart is deceitful above all things,

And desperately wicked;

Who can know it?

10 I, the Lord, search the heart,

I test the mind,

Even to give every man according to his ways,

According to the fruit of his doings.

NKJV

This testing He does through His Word the ancient paths

Jer 18:15

5 "Because My people have forgotten Me,

They have burned incense to worthless idols.

And they have caused themselves to stumble in their ways,

From the ancient paths,

To walk in pathways and not on a highway,

NKJV

Isa 57:14-15

4 And one shall say,"Heap it up! Heap it up! Prepare the way,Take the stumbling block out of the way of My people."

15 For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy:"I dwell in the high and holy place,With him who

has a contrite and humble spirit,To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

NKJV

Larry lay down trust in your heart and take up trust in His Word of written foundation unto Spiritual truths and come grow in the Ancient paths the learned of God through His Word... It is good to be small and fully laid out upon It's precepts to have no guile into which The Lord takes notice!

Eccl 12:12-14

12 And further, my son, be admonished by these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is wearisome to the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments,

For this is man's all.

14 For God will bring every work into judgment,

Including every secret thing,

Whether good or evil.

NKJV

One Book will guide you through the many that is written "His Word"

2 Tim 2:14-16

14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

NKJV

Love Your Brother Steven

[imoss]

Because The Lord has told me that His Ways will exceed mine and that He finds pleasure in the child of His who is willing to wait upon His good pleasure in revealing that which I am unable at the present... I have perfect peace in saying yes my Father elects- He says so and He also judges according to choice all men make... I have come to this reality that His Person (all that He has revealed to me thus far by The Teacher (Holy Spirit)in His Word) is the most beautiful Being that exceeds all dreams and hopes that I myself could have generated! So much so that only His Word has source to adequately describe that beauty yet my smallness becomes more groanings and tears for words fail because of mind and heart ability ends yet I see the truth continuing past that which I am able to go and it leaves me with such longing to follow but I can't and I watch as the greatest experience of my being to all that I have known... this reality witnesses to me the hope of growth that I might continue on with Him in His Beauty and Perfect Holiness...it is moments like this that Godly Patience is revealed for yet unsatisfied I am fully satisfied in the morrow of Hope with Him... It is the cleanness of no guile fully revealed in nothing hidden that the growth mostly comes and the increase is not in concept of gain but of responsibility of service to others to reveal it's true intent of witness to Him Who has given it.... Love Steven

Great thread my dear Steven. I am frankly surprised. I didn't know you could write so passionately. Your sentiments are well thought out, and they all glorify God and not men. Yes God will judge, and He will judge according to our knowledge. You were right to wait to speak, and I hope you forgive me. While I deemed you pure of heart, I thought you were just another student of the bible, afraid to make a stand. I had no business thinking that, and I regret it. Your eloquence in describing your sentiments towards God's Holy Spirit are what I like the best. They are bold and definitive. May God inspire all your thought.

so in the 3 weeks you've been here you didnt know this? go figure. I took exception to this as I've only recently (like you) started posting here but know steven to be someone VERY close to the Lord & a wonderful presenter of scripture and edification and passion for the Lord & his brothers & sisters in Christ.

I'm curious as to your opinion of the humble unlearned? What of those new to the Lord and not as bold and definitive in their faith, what of the students who are afraid to make a stand because they havent grown in the Lord to the standard that you require... your judgement? this is very very odd indeed and does not exhibit the fruits of the spirit. Seemed condescending to me.

ANOTHER Great post Steven.