death: a sneak peak into the afterlife?

[Guest man]

I understand about being careful of what we take to heart & that not everything is as it seems. That scripture just doesn't fit the topic to me.

Would you like me to explain?

I have heard some pretty wild tales of near death experiences myself. However, my Mom did not claim to have been to heaven (that's what the family assumed) but she did say that she had talked to Jesus in a beautiful, bright place. All I know is that she no longer feared dying afterward. I don't believe it was satan that gave her that peace.

So have I. Witnessed one firsthand. I don't discount the experience. I just pick through it.

[goldust59]

I understand about being careful of what we take to heart & that not everything is as it seems. That scripture just doesn't fit the topic to me.

Would you like me to explain?

I have heard some pretty wild tales of near death experiences myself. However, my Mom did not claim to have been to heaven (that's what the family assumed) but she did say that she had talked to Jesus in a beautiful, bright place. All I know is that she no longer feared dying afterward. I don't believe it was satan that gave her that peace.

So have I. Witnessed one firsthand. I don't discount the experience. I just pick through it.

Yes, please do explain.

[Matthitjah]

The people being spoken of that are sent a strong delusion are the ones that would not receive the love of the truth & be saved.

What events are taking place at the time of this delusion?

Signs and Wonders.

The reason I brought this up is, we need to be careful about what we take to heart. Not everything is as it seems.

So Goldust hasn't received the Love of the Truth?

Perhaps you should read the post from which that quote/verse was taken.

Perhaps you should explain your condemnation.

On another note; Can a Kingdom remain a Kingdom if it is divided?

Peace,

Dave

[nebula]

Hi Neb!

1. Why does having a near death experience have to be about proof or faith?

That was the point Abraham made that testimony of one come back from the dead and stressing what it was like so as to persuade others would have no affect... Only Scripture can establish faith! Think of all the wonderful miraculous signs Jesus performed yet more disbelieved in Him as God then those who believed. Even the greatest of miracles raising a 4 day dead rotten body back to life and a short time later hung Him on a cross as a blasphemer of God and the miracles were explained as satan's work to deceive as being wrought by a false messiah!

But to use this to argue that people do not see the afterlife is claiming that the only reason someone would see the afterlife is for proof.

Why make the assumption that seeing the afterlife is about proving anything?

Why can it not be to encourage?

I recall having listened to one man's testimony about seeing Heaven, and it left me feeling surrounded by love, and it just made me want to love the Lord more than I ever had before. It made me want to shout, "Glory to God!" the way he heard all the people and angels in Heaven crying at one point.

Now where is the evil and deception in that?

If spiritual experiences are discounted because they negate faith, what do you make of Paul seeing Jesus on the Road to Damascus?

What of Paul seeing a man enter Heaven?

What of John seeing Heaven?

The prophets and these you have mentioned were given this to complete the writings for which God determined the completed work of His Word....

and knowing the truth of God's revealed aspects above as nothing here to describe there... imagine the pressure of not having anything vocabulary or experiential wise to fully express what was there!

They all were overwhelmed in the realities like John falling down before angels because of the greatness of their presence and then the overwhelming task of communicating what was there with words that did not fit the actualities... but never the less written to accomplish the perfection only God could bring about in all this wonder in His Written Word....

Well, I'm not one to believe God stopped talking and revealing at the end of the First century, so . . . have to disagree with you here, bro.

2. Jesus raised people from the dead. What do you suppose happened to them in between death and being brought back?

I would naturally assume God would protect them from the knowledge of there and being brought back here for the sorrows alone would be truly great-> to try and explain the experience without the tools of being able to do so... dissatisfaction with ever word which falls short of the experience ever building to the frustration of inability but total desire to witness of that which would properly explain the experience... Love Steven

((Actually, imagine me looking at you like you have two heads)) I fail to see how this is a viable argument in you defense. To be spared sorrow? Frustration?

Actually, I'd feel pretty terrified if I died, came back to life, and remembered nothing.

But how about this scenario. I don't know if it's just a story or a legend of the early church, but I heard an account about Lazerus before a magistrate threatening to kill him if he doesn't deny Jesus. Lazerus bursts out laughing (I mean, how do you threaten a man who'd been dead already with death?), and responds, "Haven't you heard? Death is dead!"

[Guest man]

Perhaps you should explain your condemnation.

I'm not condemning anyone. I'm not even condemning the boy. I'm sure he seen something, I just don't think it was heaven.

On another note; Can a Kingdom remain a Kingdom if it is divided?

That would depend on whos kingdom you're talking about.

[Matthitjah]

Perhaps you should explain your condemnation.

I'm not condemning anyone. I'm not even condemning the boy. I'm sure he seen something, I just don't think it was heaven.

On another note; Can a Kingdom remain a Kingdom if it is divided?

That would depend on whos kingdom you're talking about.

You're good at this stuff man.

So satan will testify about the Glory of God when he is about deceit and division?

[Matthitjah]

man,

let's examine the scripture you've given.

2Th 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

For this cause; what cause?

This cause;

2Th 2:10

And with all deception of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Them that perish are the object of the deception and whom are being deceived.

We know full well that nothing shall seperate us (We the believers) from the Love of God;

Ro 8:38

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Ro 8:39

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

and;

Ro 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The born again believer in Christ Jesus who has received the Love of the Truth in Christ Jesus has escaped condemnation and the deception spoken about in 2nd Thess. that is being sent by God.

How are we born again and saved?

Ro 10:9

That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Ro 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

God is sending them a strong delusion because they loved not the Truth;

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved

They would not be Saved.

So whom are you condemning in a slight handed way? Even God is not condemning the believer and those who profess his name in the Word that you provided.

Meanwhile, a Kingdom divided will not stand.

Mt 12:25

And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

Christ said this because the Pharissee's were stating that He and His miracles testified of satan.

Yet;

Lu 9:49

And John answered and said, Teacher, we saw one casting out demons in your name; and we forbade him, because he follows not with us.

Lu 9:50

And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

We should be careful and examine these claims, but if they do not contradict the Glory of God I see no reason to forbid them. Especially when they speak of all of our Blessed Hope.

Peace,

Dave

[traveller]

I really don't know what all the fuss is over anyway. Proof? We can't have faith if we have proof? That's going to be a bit hard, I think. We know the spiritual realm exists because of many reasons. For one, it is written. Over and over, it is written in God's word. Another, that small still voice inside us. When the Holy Spirit speaks to us that should be proof of a spiritual realm, of something much greater than this physical life. When we sit and beat our chests, "forgive me Lord, a sinner." Can we come to the realization alone that we have sinned against God or is it through conviction brought about by the wooing of the Holy Spirit?

But the big "proof" is the resurrection of Christ. The eye witnesses. Those who knew Him, ate with Him, walked with Him, fished with Him. They saw Him die, and they saw Him afterwards. Where they again ate with Him, walked with Him. Why do you say we have to believe blindly, with no "proof?" God gave us proof, from the parting of the red sea to the raising up from the cross. It's if we choose to believe that is the question. The big question isn't on whether or not heaven exists, of course it does, but on if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God. "Who do you say that I am?"

I don't know if these claims are coming from a real, valid experience that the Lord chose to do for the individual, but I don't discount it at all because it would provide "proof." I don't need proof, nor does any believer. We already have that. That's why it is written that some will not believe even if they see the "proof" because they are/were aware of it but chose to not believe.

"For now we see through a glass darkly" is a beautiful, hopeful part of scripture. However, even if someone were granted a glimpse of the eternal, thatwould not fulfill the the second part that we would know "even as we are known." God knows our heart far better than we do, and knows our full thoughts and deeds and intents. He knows us better than we know ourselves. A glimpse will not give us that knowledge. Or of how or why He did this or that.

I do think we need to test the spirits, for many make claims just for attention. But the fruit should reveal the truth.

My 2 cents.

Peace, family.

[enoob57]

2 Cor 11:14-15

14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

NKJV

Mark 13:5-8

5 And Jesus, answering them, began to say: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 6 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and will deceive many. 7 But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled; for such things must happen, but the end is not yet. 8 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines and troubles. These are the beginnings of sorrows.

NKJV

1 Cor 10:12

12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

NKJV

I believe we need to hold fast to every Word that has been given us by God realizing the time of the day, as last of it, we are in...

Do not dismiss so quickly man in this... if Our Lord has said this

1 Cor 2:9-12

9 But as it is written:

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,

Nor have entered into the heart of man

The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

NKJV

John 14:2-4

2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know."

NKJV

The precious Spirit of God whispers softly at our hearts these realities and somehow without understanding we do know ... Don't we family?... Man has said be careful with these things has he spoken wrongly? Do we forget satan would deceive the very elect "if God would allow" but then we would not be elect of God would we! Hold fast to the Word of God, hang on to every precept in its literal meaning as The Teacher gives it to you... it is life everlasting!

The greatest beauty of our Infinite Lord is He has given us a foundation for which we will continue with Him through the eternities His Word Jesus Christ and the written one directs us to Him in faith

Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

NKJV

It will be made sight to us but then it will no longer be faith but the reality as we are in presently...Love Steven

[enoob57]

Brother Dave,

We have now the completed instructions of God through His Word for all that we need pertaining to life and Godliness... Christ's miracles were for us to recognize His truth that He was the creator and all things were in fact given into His Hands... now to encourage others to exit outside the completed work of God and trust man and the things in the world opens a much larger gate than Christ Himself intended... Don't you? We are to examine all things to the Scripture 2Cor 13:5

John 14:6

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

NKJV

John 10:1-6

10 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

NKJV

He has now gone unto the Father... he has left His Holy Spirit and His completed cannon of Scripture to guide us into all truth anything outside of this ... well you have His Word's on this!

"thieves and robbers"

Love Steven