The inevitable conflict.

[hupo]

Well Bible2

There is much logic in your posts. But there are other logical possibilities too.

The Arab world is far from united. The Arab world are split into several ways of thinking.

Just take the Shiates and the Sunis for example

Several years ago Iraq and Iran went to war the ended in several million dead.

Anywhere you look today you see disagreements in the Arab world. In fact what we see now is more like the stirring up of people as in the Babylon tower, rather than any group getting together with other groups.

What are known as Palestinians are refugees of a war that 7 Arab countries promised to win for them. No Arab country has done anything for these refugees! They keep them in their state of living as pawns in the "Hate Israel" game.

The so called Muslim brotherhood don't give one bit of a tear for any Palestinian.

The Arab world is so engrossed in hatred that Israel is not enough for them any more. They kill their own without butting an eyelid.

I can't see any unity in the Arab world

As for Israel, yes, we have a good army but that is not what is keeping us here, at least not deep beneath it all.

If we have a good army it is because God wants it that way. Our mistake is in thinking it is something we have achieved in our own strength. This is where God allows us to get beaten up every now and then, just enough to get us to realize who is really our strength

Unfortunately we are hard learning and need several knocks over the head to wake up.

No, I don't see the world ending this way. It will be in a much more glorifying way. Glorifying God, that is!

More than that, many of these hate filled people will turn around and see the light

Call me naive. I trust God to stand by His promises

[MorningGlory]

To attack Israel is foolish. With all the atomic and neutron bombs they have at Dimona it would put the human race at the point of extinction if Israel is ever forced to use them.

I wouldn't worry. We will not be using them. No need

God didn't create the human race to make it extinct

I trust He has better ways of turning mankind around

I believe as you do, hupo, that God will never allow Israel's enemies victory. I continue to pray for your country along with many thousands of other Americans.

I would like to sharpen this point.

Yes, Israel is a big part of it but God can and probably will, turn many of today's enemies, around too

That is a bigger victory than any bomb can achieve

Amen to that, hupo.

[Guest]

Call me naive. I trust God to stand by His promises

Hallelujah~!

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. Isaiah 45:17

Amen!

And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. Joel 2:27

And Amen....

As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 9:33

[Bible2]

hupo said:

But there are other logical possibilities too.

Indeed. And one of them could surprise us all.

hupo said:

The Arab world is far from united. The Arab world are split into several ways of thinking.

Just take the Shiates and the Sunis for example

The beauty of Baathism (from a Baathist's point of view) is that it downplays religion and focuses on Arab nationalism, under which all Arab states could become united into one powerful United Arab States, regardless of the majority religious sects within its various states.

hupo said:

Several years ago Iraq and Iran went to war the ended in several million dead.

That's right. But note that Iran isn't Arab. Also, the U.S. could build up a Baathist Iraqi Army until it's much more powerful than it was under (Baathist) Saddam Hussein, to the point where the U.S. could become convinced that another stalemate-war between a Baathist Iraq and a theocratic Iran will be avoided and that Iraq will be able to completely overrun and occupy Iran. (But then Baathist Iraq could decide not to invade Iran at all, but to turn and defeat Israel and Egypt instead.)

hupo said:

Anywhere you look today you see disagreements in the Arab world.

They could all be overcome if Baathism becomes able to ignite Arab nationalism as the cause celebre among the Arab masses, who could overthrow any Arab governments insistent on keeping the Arab world divided up into petty, political fiefdoms.

hupo said:

In fact what we see now is more like the stirring up of people as in the Babylon tower, rather than any group getting together with other groups.

Not sure what you mean here. What has been presented is the possibility of one group (the Arabs) uniting into one massive United Arab States, led by a single, charismatic leader (the Antichrist).

Then the United Arab States could join with the European Union to from a Mediterranean Union, which the Antichrist could gain control of and use as his base of power to take hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b). It's then that he could bring about a unity of mankind like occurred at the time of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:6) and there could even be an endtime equivalent to the Tower of Babel, which could be built in the rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq).

For during the worldwide reign of the Antichrist the whole world will be deceived into worshipping Lucifer (the dragon) and his human son the Antichrist (the beast) (Revelation 13:4-18) and one aspect of this deception could be that Lucifer will show mankind how to build at Babylon a huge tower/device, a huge "spiritual machine" the size of the Empire State Building which will be able to send up into the sky an incredibly powerful spiritual beam analogous to a laser. Near the end of the tribulation, Lucifer could tell mankind that it will need to employ this huge weapon during an impending battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:14b, Revelation 19:19). Mixing some science fiction with some ancient lies of Gnosticism, Lucifer could tell mankind something like:

"YHWH is now heading toward the earth in his gigantic spaceship which is shaped like a Borg Cube [cf. Revelation 21:2a,16]. He's coming to enslave you and to turn you all into Borg-like automatons. But this mighty Tower Device will be able to blow his Borg Cube and him to bits with its spiritual ray. Then we can focus the Tower Device on any point of empty space until it burns a hole in spacetime, a portal through which I will lead your spirits out of this vile material universe which YHWH made to be your prison, and I will lead you back up into the purely-spiritual realm of the Pleroma, where you can live in bliss as gods forever, doing as you please, just as you had done for all ages past with me before you by some mishap fell into YHWH's trap".

Before the second coming happens, Lucifer could prove the power of the Tower Device to mankind by letting the Antichrist or his False Prophet use it to blow up some large asteroids out in space, so that mankind will go into its battle against YHWH in full confidence that it will be able to destroy him. But when the battle comes the Device won't work against YHWH (cf. Psalms 21:11, KJV). Instead, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will take total victory in the battle (Revelation 19:11-20:6).

hupo said:

What are known as Palestinians are refugees of a war that 7 Arab countries promised to win for them.

There's really no such thing as "Palestinians" as opposed to Arabs; Palestinians are just Arabs. So a future "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated Israel) could become just one (minor) state within a huge United Arab States stretching from Oman to Morocco.

hupo said:

No Arab country has done anything for these refugees!

Exactly, and the Baathists could use that fact to wholly disgrace the current Arab governments and get them replaced by a Baathist United Arab States, after the Baathists defeat Israel and create a "United Palestine", to which all the "refugees" in Jordan, Lebanon, etc., can return.

hupo said:

They keep them in their state of living as pawns in the "Hate Israel" game.

Note that almost all Arabs hate Israel, not just "Palestinian" "refugees".

hupo said:

The so called Muslim brotherhood don't give one bit of a tear for any Palestinian.

The Baathists could use that to show that religion-alone hasn't helped the Arabs to become free and powerful: they also need Arab nationalism: political unity.

hupo said:

The Arab world is so engrossed in hatred that Israel is not enough for them any more. They kill their own without butting an eyelid.

The Baathists could point to Sunni vs. Shiite terrorism to show that religious extremism is only hurting the Arabs themselves; the Arabs need to re-assert religious moderation across the board. Almost all Arabs are already religiously moderate; they're just too scared of the religious extremists to speak out against extremism. But if the Baathists squash the extremists militarily, the Arabs can unite politically under Arab nationalism and a moderate Islam.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Bible2

[Bible2]

hupo said:

I can't see any unity in the Arab world

Not now, when the Arab masses are unnaturally divided by rival military dictatorships, many supported by the U.S. and Israel. But take out the different dictatorships and replace then with one popular, charismatic Arab-nationalist Baathist dictator who distributes the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24), and you'll get unity in the Arab world in a heartbeat.

hupo said:

As for Israel, yes, we have a good army but that is not what is keeping us here, at least not deep beneath it all.

If we have a good army it is because God wants it that way. Our mistake is in thinking it is something we have achieved in our own strength. This is where God allows us to get beaten up every now and then, just enough to get us to realize who is really our strength

Unfortunately we are hard learning and need several knocks over the head to wake up.

No, I don't see the world ending this way. It will be in a much more glorifying way. Glorifying God, that is!

More than that, many of these hate filled people will turn around and see the light

Call me naive. I trust God to stand by His promises

Indeed he will, even if the presented Baathist/Antichrist scenario comes to pass. For just as God allowed the state of Israel to be obliterated by the ancient Babylonians, but then restored the state of Israel; and just as God then allowed the state of Israel to be obliterated again by the ancient Romans, but then restored the state of Israel again; so God could allow the state of Israel to be obliterated again by the Baathists, but then restore the state of Israel again at the second coming of Jesus Christ.

For Jesus Christ's kingdom is Israel. At his second coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' return he'll restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21), and fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29.

And Jesus will also bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David, for they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in Jesus when they see him at his second coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will become part of the church at that time, for there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

During the millennium, all the Gentile nations will come up to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) upon the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

Edited April 11, 2011 by Bible2

[hupo]

Shalom Bible2,

The odds of you being correct in your view of things are at least 50% and arguments won't change anything.

Just stating that I have no argument with you, just seeing things in a somewhat different way

But to the point, from my experience with our neighbors is that they are not western thinkers.

Look at their culture, their way of life, their regard to western systems such as democracy, their view of study and research, their conduct with family life, the place women take in the family, the way pride controls so much in life, their laws and the way they implicate them and so on and so on......

I am not saying we are better!

I am saying we are different. Just take democracy. The west regards it as an ultimate way of life while most Arab states regard democracy as something to be used as needed and many times it is for undermining democracy itself.

Unity has never been a strong point. There have always been struggles in every which way you turn

We here in Israel laugh at ourselves saying that where there are two Israelis, there are at least two opinions!

The Arab world is even more so in this sense, so much so that seeing some kind of world wide national Arab empire is, to my mind , pretty far fetched

But, like I said, you may be right.... time will tell

[Botz]

Hi Hupo and Bible2...I wasn't really considering end-time scenarios which could pan out in a variety of ways, many of which have probably not even entered the realm of possibility yet, and personally I think many things have to happen before we reach that stage. What I have been considering recently is solely to do with the build up of weapons by hostile nations surrounding Israel and the immediate ramifications should wars break out.

I appreciate what you posted Bible2....very interesting, and I really think those monstrosities nestled on the Temple Mount will act as catalysts to end-time scenarios when they are destroyed....earthquake, missile, looney-tune with a match etc. I tend to agree with Hupo, that any Arab unity is a bit of an Oxymoron, and yet they managed to get their act together when the State of Israel was declared...and the Persians who are not Arab, seem to have designs on leading the way and establishing their own kudos.

I don't think it is ever possible that Israel will once again be over-run because if we believe this is the time that G-d Himself has brought them back to the land, then it also states in

Amos 9:14

[Botz]

Shalom Bible2,

The odds of you being correct in your view of things are at least 50% and arguments won't change anything.

Just stating that I have no argument with you, just seeing things in a somewhat different way

Not arguing ain't very Jewish mate!

But to the point, from my experience with our neighbors is that they are not western thinkers.

Look at their culture, their way of life, their regard to western systems such as democracy, their view of study and research, their conduct with family life, the place women take in the family, the way pride controls so much in life, their laws and the way they implicate them and so on and so on......

I am not saying we are better!

I am saying we are different. Just take democracy. The west regards it as an ultimate way of life while most Arab states regard democracy as something to be used as needed and many times it is for undermining democracy itself.

Unity has never been a strong point. There have always been struggles in every which way you turn

I totally agree...Western thinking just cannot accomodate the Middle-Eastern mindset, which is why we are so susceptible to being fooled and becoming a laughing stock to those in the Arab world, and being despised by the Israelis as we try to apply pressure for peace according to Western standards.

We here in Israel laugh at ourselves saying that where there are two Israelis, there are at least two opinions!

If only that were true lol...(atah meveen zey bemed shalosh)

The Arab world is even more so in this sense, so much so that seeing some kind of world wide national Arab empire is, to my mind , pretty far fetched

But, like I said, you may be right.... time will tell

Yes, time will tell.

[hupo]

Not arguing ain't very Jewish mate!

Oh,oh.... your Aussi accent is showing

We here in Israel laugh at ourselves saying that where there are two Israelis, there are at least two opinions!

If only that were true lol...(atah meveen zey bemed shalosh)

Well, I did say AT LEAST

[hupo]

Amos 9:14