2 Israels?

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus is the Christ.

The problem you all are having has do do with the meaning of "root" and "branch".

Israel is a natural "branch".

We the church are grafted into the "root".

The "branches" are not the "root".

The Church is not grafted into Israel.

The church, "we brethren" Galatians 4:28 are like Isaac, the child of promise.

We are grafted into the "root" Abraham, at the level of Isaac.

Jesus is Lord!

Uh, you are not exactly correct. Gentile believers are grafted into Israel as that is what Paul is saying in His Olive tree metaphor. The entire Olive Tree is Israel and Gentiles have been included by faith into Israel.

Finally. Someone who reads their Bible just as it says.

John, I think you need to read a few posts back, as you and I categorically disagree on several things. For one thing, your position is skewed by a misunderstanding of what Replacement Theology means.

[Jesusplusnothing]

Ok. We are grafted into the Isaac "branch".

That is not what the Bible says. The Bible says that Gentiles are grafted into the tree. You should not add to the metaphor.]

The claims that Israel is the "tree" means that it is also the trunk and "root".

That is what the metaphor illustrates. "Israel" is a natural olive tree.

Israel does not distinguish the Covenant, Isaac does.

Those in Isaac by faith, can not boast, because they got there the same way Isaac did, by the Abraham-root type of faith.

The Bible does not say we are in Isaac. The Bible says that all believers are the seed of Abraham by faith.

Since I am already in Issac by faith, you will never convince me that I need to be grafted into Jacob/Israel.

You are not in Isaac. You are the spiritual seed of Abraham. We are in Christ by faith, not Isaac. You need to stop trying to make up theology and read your Bible.

Secondly, being grafted into Israel does not mean being grafted into a physical people group. It refers to being joined to a community of faith, namely what Paul refers to as "Israel."

Jesus is the Christ.

Galatians 3:16 The natural "seed of Abraham" is Isaac. The spiritual "seed of Abraham" is Christ.

We brethren are like Isaac, the Seed of Abraham.

Paul never said that Israel was the good olive tree.

The tree that Israel was cut out of has Abraham for the "root" and Isaac as the trunk.

The tree you present starts with Jacob/Israel.

Conclusion: The church is not spiritual Israel; it is spiritual Isaac.

Jesus is Lord!

[nebula]

The claims that Israel is the "tree" means that it is also the trunk and "root".

Israel does not distinguish the Covenant, Isaac does.

Isaac had two sons, remember? The Covenant was passed to only one of them.

Israel being grafted into itself, brings to mind the extension cord plugged into itself.

I still believe you are taking the analogy in directions it was never meant.

[Guest shiloh357]

Ok. We are grafted into the Isaac "branch".

That is not what the Bible says. The Bible says that Gentiles are grafted into the tree. You should not add to the metaphor.]

The claims that Israel is the "tree" means that it is also the trunk and "root".

That is what the metaphor illustrates. "Israel" is a natural olive tree.

Israel does not distinguish the Covenant, Isaac does.

Those in Isaac by faith, can not boast, because they got there the same way Isaac did, by the Abraham-root type of faith.

The Bible does not say we are in Isaac. The Bible says that all believers are the seed of Abraham by faith.

Since I am already in Issac by faith, you will never convince me that I need to be grafted into Jacob/Israel.

You are not in Isaac. You are the spiritual seed of Abraham. We are in Christ by faith, not Isaac. You need to stop trying to make up theology and read your Bible.

Secondly, being grafted into Israel does not mean being grafted into a physical people group. It refers to being joined to a community of faith, namely what Paul refers to as "Israel."

Jesus is the Christ.

Galatians 3:16 The natural "seed of Abraham" is Isaac. The spiritual "seed of Abraham" is Christ.

We brethren are like Isaac, the Seed of Abraham.

Paul never said that Israel was the good olive tree.

The tree that Israel was cut out of has Abraham for the "root" and Isaac as the trunk.

The tree you present starts with Jacob/Israel.

Conclusion: The church is not spiritual Israel; it is spiritual Isaac.

Jesus is Lord!

No we are not like Isaac. We are the spiritual seed of Abraham. The Bible never compares believers to Isaac.

Paul's metaphor is that the natural Olive Tree is Israel.

The root is Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Your conclusion is erroneous because you are penciling things into the Bible that are contrary

[childeye]

Interesting thread, and I only glanced over most of it. I don't know if I should add to it or even can add to it.

Has anyone considered that there are two righteousnesses? One of works and one by grace? The Old Testament is about men keeping ordinances to establish their righteousness through obedience to laws. The New Testament is about men recieving righteousness by grace apart from the law.

The law was never meant to make one righteous, if one kept the law blessing were given by God thats exactly what God says, 'if you obey me then I will be your God and I will do this...' no righteousness did not come from the keeping the law yet God tells us if you love Me you will keep my commandments. Grace abounds in the entire bible not just in the new testament.

The grace I am talking about is that which comes through Christ.

You think Gods grace is different than Messiah's grace? It is one and the same. God provided grace to those in the OT, God provides grace to those in the NT, God provides grace to all, He sent His Son what more proof of love and grace than that? Grace is what we are covered with when we believe in Him, grace was what covered those prophets, kings, and every day common folk who believed in Him and the promise of the Messiah throughout the entire bible, whether its the OT or the NT.

I'm sorry Mizz, I never meant to imply there was a difference between God's grace or Messiahs grace. I"m saying what Paul said in Romans 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Edited April 16, 2011 by childeye

[JohnD]

John, I think you need to read a few posts back, as you and I categorically disagree on several things. For one thing, your position is skewed by a misunderstanding of what Replacement Theology means.

{{{sigh}}}

No it's not, because I'm not a replacement theologian.

I thought you saw the difference.

Replacement theology teaches that Christians replace Jews as God's people. I stated repeatedly this is false. That the Jews are still God's people OF THIS WORLD even if they are in unbelief. Even if they end up in hell when they die. They are God's testimony to mankind (even in antithesis to the Messiah; their extrabiblical writings against Yeshua are a Hebrew testimonial of his historicity, for example... then there's the prophetic time clock... etc.). Christians and Jews who believe in Jesus are God's people FROM HEAVEN. We are his ambassadors as citizens of the Jerusalem from above...

That awful replacement theology holds to none of these things but teaches God dumped the Jews because they refused to believe in Jesus. This has eternal consequences, but it does not mean God dumped Israel.

I guess I'll keep going this alone until someone is burdened with seeing the light. {{{sigh}}}

[JohnD]

Genesis 22 (NASB95)

1 Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him,

[mizzdy]

Interesting thread, and I only glanced over most of it. I don't know if I should add to it or even can add to it.

Has anyone considered that there are two righteousnesses? One of works and one by grace? The Old Testament is about men keeping ordinances to establish their righteousness through obedience to laws. The New Testament is about men recieving righteousness by grace apart from the law.

The law was never meant to make one righteous, if one kept the law blessing were given by God thats exactly what God says, 'if you obey me then I will be your God and I will do this...' no righteousness did not come from the keeping the law yet God tells us if you love Me you will keep my commandments. Grace abounds in the entire bible not just in the new testament.

The grace I am talking about is that which comes through Christ.

You think Gods grace is different than Messiah's grace? It is one and the same. God provided grace to those in the OT, God provides grace to those in the NT, God provides grace to all, He sent His Son what more proof of love and grace than that? Grace is what we are covered with when we believe in Him, grace was what covered those prophets, kings, and every day common folk who believed in Him and the promise of the Messiah throughout the entire bible, whether its the OT or the NT.

I'm sorry Mizz, I never meant to imply there was a difference between God's grace or Messiahs grace. I"m saying what Paul said in Romans 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Thing is Childeye, no one in the OT ever thought the law saved them, that it brought salvation and the promised life with the Messiah. During the captivity Judah learned how to put fences around the Torah thinking they were protecting Gods instructions when they went to rebuild they had a whole generation that didn't know a thing about temple ways. So we fast forward to Messiahs time and we find that the pharisees are the sect that won the political clout to carry the 'laws' so Romans is just trying to show once again that daily sacrifices did not gain favor with God, that He desires mercy more than sacrifices. Works never gained salvation, the ancient Israelites knew this, we know this, the pharisees did know this but they were more politically motivated and felt that everything needed to revolve around the temple and themselves. The apostles had a hard row to sow when pointing out to the folks that they didn't have to do what the pharisees did just listen to the reading of Moses and that Gods words will tell them how to behave, how to gain life through the Messiah. When we accept Messiah we also accept His grace that covers us when we fail and miss the mark, we are to grow in faith and that faith and belief in Him will always produce good works. Walking in Gods Torah, His commandments keeps us walking in His light, as David says in Psalms 119:105 and else where, "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path." Its never an either or situation we can do no good works unless we are walking in His light, we can have grace cover us but if we do no good works then we are not following His instructions.

shabbat shalom,

Mizz

[Guest shiloh357]

No it's not, because I'm not a replacement theologian.

I did not say you were a replacement theologian. Your definition of Replacement Theology was posted by you as follows: "If this were saying that physical Gentiles could become physical Israel by faith in Jesus then it would be replacement theology. But it does not so it is not."

Replacement Theology is the view that the Church is the new "Israel" or that Christians are "spiritual Jews" and have supplanted biblical Israel. Essentially casting off physical Israel and making a new "spriitual Israel" the new chosen people of God. In an earlier post I simply corrected your misunderstanding of Replacement Theology.

I thought you saw the difference.

I do see the difference. The difference between your errant definition and the correct one.

Replacement theology teaches that Christians replace Jews as God's people. I stated repeatedly this is false.

I agree it is false, but I had to take care to correct your misstatement of what Replacement Theology means.

I guess I'll keep going this alone until someone is burdened with seeing the light. {{{sigh}}}

Disagreeing with you is not an indicator that anyone is wrong or groping in darkness, so you can drop the arrogant tone.

[JohnD]

So, you do not believe Jew and Gentile are attached to something greater than either when they have faith in Yeshua? Romans 11. That this vehicle (which did not change from covenant to covenant, btw) is not the spiritual house of Israel... in your pov shiloh?

And stop with the superior attitude yourself.