Neuroscience: Why free will may be an illusion

[Fez]

We have choice, but freewill we should not have if we are truly saved...

[childeye]

Note; The book bondage of the will by Martin Luther where he argues the case wth the Roman Catholic Church publicly. The whole argument of the believers in freewill was based upon the claim that God wouldn't have given us the laws if He knew we couldn't keep them. This is a form of freewill defined as an option. This is like saying if I had a mouse in a box and I put a partition in the middle with a door in it, he now had a freewill. An Illusion.

I just realized your blindness God is not in a box He is unbounded and Christ is the Doorway of Obedience through which we pass through to live forever in the freedom of unbounded Holiness... and freewill choice is to be delivered from a bounded hell of His absence for He cannot be bound by the election and predestination The Father holds in His greatness!

You are Catholic in your persuastion of Theology aren't you? Love Steven

I don't know how by my statement about a mouse, you assumed this mouse was God? You shouldn't assume. This door, or choice I was referring to is sin. Remember that we started out in innocence and Satan proposed the option to disobey God, not God. I don't know how you assume from the above statement I am Catholic either. I was supporting Martin Luther's position. In case you are not aware, the Catholics believe in freewill. Martin Luther argued we are in bondage to sin, hence the title, "Bondage of the will". You, in your statement on another thread said so yourself, when you said "we were sealed in our sin". Did you mean this or not? Let's be honest, if one knowingly denies what is the Truth, it is not a freewill, it is dishonesty and pride. It is Satanic. Ponder this question; does God have the freewill to sin?

Edited April 22, 2011 by childeye

[childeye]

We have choice, but freewill we should not have if we are truly saved...

I think I see what you're saying Fez. In essence I think we may agree but are in disagreement over terminology. Yes there is a choice between Truth and lies, but the will that is free is the one that sees the Truth not the one that chooses the lie, or sin.

[childeye]

Don't Blame Me

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God:

for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin,

when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

God Made Me To Do It

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world Gods invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorwho is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Let's be honest, to deny what is God is not a freewill, it is dishonesty and pride.

Edited April 22, 2011 by childeye

[Guest]

Let's be honest, to deny what is God is not a freewill, it is dishonesty and pride.

Honestly

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Men Willfully Sin

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:12-15

So, Honestly Don't

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. 1 John 5:21

But Honestly Do

Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. James 4:10

For Honestly, Whosoever Shall Call Will Be Delivered

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

Honestly~!

____________

_________

______

___

Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned:

but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 16-18

And Be Blessed Beloved

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:19-21

Love, Joe

[Guest]

Martin Luther argued we are in bondage to sin

The LORD Jesus Stated

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:34-36

Whosoever Shall

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 10:32-33

Whosoever

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:14-15

____________

_________

______

___

Ponder this question; does God have the freewill to sin?

Ponder

Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:16-18

The Power

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

Of God

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:23

See

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. Galatians 6:14

Yes

That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. 1 Thessalonians 2:12

Amen~!

But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 2 Corinthians 10:17

____________

_________

______

___

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[enoob57]

I don't know how by my statement about a mouse, you assumed this mouse was God? You shouldn't assume.

If you are in spiritual control yourself ... then do not blaspheme My Father in Heaven...

John 4:23-24

23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

NKJV

We were speaking of created things and freedom of choice thus forming freewill so that each and every man shall give an account for that choice either under law due to the rejection of Christ The Great White Throne or under Grace at the Judgment Seat of Christ for the things they did as to love for Him. The fact that these judgments occur means we have accountability and in that accountability God has said this-> after the fall

Deut 30:11-20

11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

NKJV

Because we know Rom 3:23 is true and He is speaking to sinners here ... A freewill you deny but God does not and will judge all men for their choice

This door, or choice I was referring to is sin. Remember that we started out in innocence and Satan proposed the option to disobey God, not God. I don't know how you assume from the above statement I am Catholic either. I was supporting Martin Luther's position. In case you are not aware, the Catholics believe in freewill. Martin Luther argued we are in bondage to sin, hence the title, "Bondage of the will". You, in your statement on another thread said so yourself, when you said "we were sealed in our sin". Did you mean this or not? Let's be honest, if one knowingly denies what is the Truth, it is not freewill, it is dishonesty and pride. It is Satanic.

Your struggle is this:

the choice of a sinner is one of self centered- the whole of motivation is inward and bounded by I myself and me syndrome...

that is the bondage of sin and no matter what we do it is the underlying reason for all choice thus making it the inability to choose righteously outside of the consideration of self! That is why the Law could not save... we could not be made pure in our choice for we already had chosen wrong in Adam and the nature was established that we should evaluate all things in the center of self but we died in our center 'our spirit' and thus the reason why we must be born again so that we truly can be set free in the Righteousness of Our Lord... This is why judgment and Rom 1 as to the choice-> for in creation all things in the beginning benefited by the existence of other created forms around and it also to other created forms did benefit them- thus 1 to many and many to 1 a unity of benefit. We see this darkly now for death and self consideration over others has become the ruler of this world but yet the other, (benefit to others), is seen enough so that all men through the witness of creation know and that The Creator is and that He is the Benefit and the Beneficiary of all things and so all men choose by the reality that is presented in creation. Even though the system is destroying itself because of the consideration of self over the consideration of others yet men are not willing to give of themselves in sacrifice to others as to their benefit because of the lose of self in doing so for others-> for they do not trust outside of themselves The Creator of themselves -in that- God's keeping of those who do in Him. Herein is Christ Jesus Who as Creator came into the Created to show forth that sacrifice so that we may know His Way is The Way to Life and Life for all everlasting. It is the hearts that through freewill say I see Him as the Way The Truth and The Life and I reject myself as being not the way, nor the truth and definitely not life... Repentance is truly dying to self and receiving Life In Christ Jesus and true freedom is bondage to God Who is boundless.

Ponder this question; does God have the freewill to sin?

Once again I am not referring to you here as satan but the spirit of your question I am referring!

The Lord has rebuked satan in that he (satan) believing his the ability or right or whatever to examine God and still yet with truth all he was-> was of God Who had created

him and by the very act of turning his view inward to evaluated God outward became a thief of the very thing he was-> a being created to glorify Our Father Which Art In

Heaven Hallowed be Thy Name Thy Kingdom Come Thy Will Be Done on earth as it is IN Heaven...Sin/death and wrath is bound in hell for eternity...

God and His Children unbounded in The Holiness of our Lord -> true freedom has no bounds and God's Love the perfect Law of Liberty In Him!

All that are in Heaven will be there by choice by the draw of God's Love in His Son and His witness that they held greater than their own selves...

Love Steven

[nebula]

You guys are funny.

I feel like I'm watching a hockey game.

[enoob57]

You guys are funny.

I feel like I'm watching a hockey game.

were pucks pucks I hope you love hockey pucks

[childeye]

I don't know how by my statement about a mouse, you assumed this mouse was God? You shouldn't assume.

If you are in spiritual control yourself ... then do not blaspheme My Father in Heaven...

John 4:23-24

23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

NKJV

We were speaking of created things and freedom of choice thus forming freewill so that each and every man shall give an account for that choice either under law due to the rejection of Christ The Great White Throne or under Grace at the Judgment Seat of Christ for the things they did as to love for Him. The fact that these judgments occur means we have accountability and in that accountability God has said this-> after the fall

Deut 30:11-20

11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

NKJV

Because we know Rom 3:23 is true and He is speaking to sinners here ... A freewill you deny but God does not and will judge all men for their choice

This door, or choice I was referring to is sin. Remember that we started out in innocence and Satan proposed the option to disobey God, not God. I don't know how you assume from the above statement I am Catholic either. I was supporting Martin Luther's position. In case you are not aware, the Catholics believe in freewill. Martin Luther argued we are in bondage to sin, hence the title, "Bondage of the will". You, in your statement on another thread said so yourself, when you said "we were sealed in our sin". Did you mean this or not? Let's be honest, if one knowingly denies what is the Truth, it is not freewill, it is dishonesty and pride. It is Satanic.

Your struggle is this:

the choice of a sinner is one of self centered- the whole of motivation is inward and bounded by I myself and me syndrome...

that is the bondage of sin and no matter what we do it is the underlying reason for all choice thus making it the inability to choose righteously outside of the consideration of self! That is why the Law could not save... we could not be made pure in our choice for we already had chosen wrong in Adam and the nature was established that we should evaluate all things in the center of self but we died in our center 'our spirit' and thus the reason why we must be born again so that we truly can be set free in the Righteousness of Our Lord... This is why judgment and Rom 1 as to the choice-> for in creation all things in the beginning benefited by the existence of other created forms around and it also to other created forms did benefit them- thus 1 to many and many to 1 a unity of benefit. We see this darkly now for death and self consideration over others has become the ruler of this world but yet the other, (benefit to others), is seen enough so that all men through the witness of creation know and that The Creator is and that He is the Benefit and the Beneficiary of all things and so all men choose by the reality that is presented in creation. Even though the system is destroying itself because of the consideration of self over the consideration of others yet men are not willing to give of themselves in sacrifice to others as to their benefit because of the lose of self in doing so for others-> for they do not trust outside of themselves The Creator of themselves -in that- God's keeping of those who do in Him. Herein is Christ Jesus Who as Creator came into the Created to show forth that sacrifice so that we may know His Way is The Way to Life and Life for all everlasting. It is the hearts that through freewill say I see Him as the Way The Truth and The Life and I reject myself as being not the way, nor the truth and definitely not life... Repentance is truly dying to self and receiving Life In Christ Jesus and true freedom is bondage to God Who is boundless.

Ponder this question; does God have the freewill to sin?

Once again I am not referring to you here as satan but the spirit of your question I am referring!

The Lord has rebuked satan in that he (satan) believing his the ability or right or whatever to examine God and still yet with truth all he was-> was of God Who had created

him and by the very act of turning his view inward to evaluated God outward became a thief of the very thing he was-> a being created to glorify Our Father Which Art In

Heaven Hallowed be Thy Name Thy Kingdom Come Thy Will Be Done on earth as it is IN Heaven...Sin/death and wrath is bound in hell for eternity...

God and His Children unbounded in The Holiness of our Lord -> true freedom has no bounds and God's Love the perfect Law of Liberty In Him!

All that are in Heaven will be there by choice by the draw of God's Love in His Son and His witness that they held greater than their own selves...

Love Steven

Dear Steven, apart from two things you say I have no problem with what you are saying. They are "please don't blaspheme my Father" and "you struggle with". For the record, I do not blaspheme God nor do I struggle with this matter of "freewill". What I do struggle with is explaining this to you so as to remove your misperceptions of me. Of course there is judgment. You have already established in your reasoning that freewill is necessary for judgment to occur. This is not accurate. For God will render to each man according to his own works. This is a judgment based upon the actions of each man according to his treatment of others and is therefore a just and equitable judgment apart from the issue of whether a man's choices are made freely. For instnace, the merciful shall receive mercy. So this begs the question what makes a man merciful? There exists a Truth that upon seeing, justifies in a man's mind the need for mercy and causes a man to will to be merciful. And there exist's a lie that argues counter to that Truth promoting and justifying condemnation and causes a man in his reasoning, to will to be unmerciful. Which one you believe will bring about you're own judgment out of your own mouth according to your own faith.

Edited April 24, 2011 by childeye