Rapture Question

[exrockstar]

First, PLEASE let's not turn this into a debate on whether there will be a Rapture or not. Thanks.

Okay, my question to those that do believe we will be raptured:

Do you think we will be raptured before the Antichrist appears on the scene, or after?

after

[Bold Believer]

First, PLEASE let's not turn this into a debate on whether there will be a Rapture or not. Thanks.

Okay, my question to those that do believe we will be raptured:

Do you think we will be raptured before the Antichrist appears on the scene, or after?

after

Yup....LONG AFTER.

[Joshua-777]

First, PLEASE let's not turn this into a debate on whether there will be a Rapture or not. Thanks.

Okay, my question to those that do believe we will be raptured:

Do you think we will be raptured before the Antichrist appears on the scene, or after?

After. We are waiting for the coming of Christ.

[j102]

after. scriptures tell us that we are gathered to meet jesus in the air then jesus destroys the antichrist with the brightness of his coming

[Daena]

First, PLEASE let's not turn this into a debate on whether there will be a Rapture or not. Thanks.

Hi. Thats a bit hard.

Okay, my question to those that do believe we will be raptured:

It depends what you mean by 'Raptured'.

Do you think we will be raptured before the Antichrist appears on the scene, or after?

As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.....

Do you see that?

The ones who were taken in the flood were destroyed. Who was left behind???

-Daena.

[rollinTHUNDER]

As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.....

Do you see that?

The ones who were taken in the flood were destroyed. Who was left behind???

-Daena.

Hi Daena,

Don't you mean the ones who were left were destroyed? They were left and swept away by God's wrath.

Noah and his family were taken up, floating on the water in the sky above the highest mountains, where the clouds normally are.

[Bold Believer]

after. scriptures tell us that we are gathered to meet jesus in the air then jesus destroys the antichrist with the brightness of his coming

Really? I have yet to find the word antichrist in that passage in 37 years as a Christian. It is the man of sin who is destroyed with the brightness of his coming, not 'the antichrist'. They are quite different.

[joi]

2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The above verses are clear as we will not be gathered together unto The Lord (The Rapture) until AFTER there come a falling away first , and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Apparently Ray my brother, you don't read Greek. Falling away is apostasia, which means to depart from a STANDARD, not a place. So when Paul states that we cannot be synagogued (gathered together) to the Lord until the apostasy comes first, he means a departure from the totality of Christian teaching concerning Christ and God, not the changing of the body.

Based on the teachings of my pastor, who had eight years of Greek, and this site; http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2000-May/011497.html it appears your assement is incorect.

[nChrist]

Before -

One should know that the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ are two separate and distinct events. Christ does not come all the way down to the earth at the Rapture, rather He catches His Church up to meet Him in the air. Jesus Christ comes all the way down to the earth at His Second Coming. AND, the Rapture is a Joyous event - the Second Coming is in great and holy wrath.

[Guest]

Do you think we will be raptured before the Antichrist appears on the scene, or after?

I already gave my answer as "after". Perhaps I should have said why, I will try to be succinct, not easy for me, but I'll give it a shot. For the shallow, busy, uninterested or easily bored folks, you can scrol down to where it says "conclusion" near the bottom. For those who are actually interested in learning detail, I am sorry that a cannot make this dissertation any shorter and still feel that I have done the topic any justice.

First, the question asks about the the relationship of the timing of the rapture, and the appearance of the anti-christ.

In all the bible, only John uses the words anti-christ, but I make the assumption "the anti-christ" is what Jesus was speaking about when in Matt 24:15 He said:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—"

So, following Jesus instructions, I go to Daniel, where I find this:

Dan 9:27

"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate , even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate ."

Notice that "he" will make a covenant for a week. The word translated as week, just means 7, not seven days. It here means 7 years (another assumption). In the middle of the week, he breaks the covenant, by ending the sacrifices. You see here, certain words, abomination, and desolate. This is the "abomination of desolation" Jesus referred to.

Now, since we have this 7 year period that contains the abomination (and my inferance, the anti-christ), we only need to discover where the rapture is in relationship to this personage.

Let's toss in another mention of this abomination for the book of Daniel, chapter 12:

9 He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

Again, we have it confirmed as in the middle of the 7 years, because after the abomination, there are 1290 days, very close to the exact middle of a 7 year period.

Paul seems to refer to this anti-christ character as well:

3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition

Now, I am making no point here, at least, I do not need to go here to make one, but I thought I would toss in in for those wanting to look deeper into this.

So far I have put forth the assumption that the anti-christ is this abomination, or that for other reasons perhaps, we assume that the anti-christ can be found in the 7 years, perhaps

we are concinced from the book of Revelation, that he appears in the 7 year period.

Now, we only have to deduce whether the rapture is before, during or after this 7 years.

A description of the rapture is found in 1 thess 4, where Pauls tells his readers:

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who sleep, that you not grieve, as the rest also, not having hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you in the Word of the Lord, that we the living who remain to the coming of the Lord not at all will go before those who have fallen asleep. 16 Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first. 17 Then we who remain alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air.

This is a key passage. It does not say whether this even is before or after the 7 years, but it does give us another sequence.

we who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep (died).

the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

So, if the living are raptured after the dead in Christ are raised, we might ask: "When are the dead in Christ raised?"

In Rev 9:6-11, we see believers depicted as having died in the tribulation, and that the Lord is waiting for the rest of their brethren to be martyred before He acts. (check it out)

Remember I am trying to be brief, but for those who want more on this topic, instead of this brief summation, I have developed this more fully at http://www.omegascri...y/best_shot.htm , and even that is brief, just about 4 times as long, but hardly exhaustive.

In Rev 20, we see these martyrs again:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection .

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection : on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Verse 4, clearly these are the same people, those who were beheaded for Jesus, during the tribulation. We also see, that they will LIVE and reign during the millenium. So, since they have died, but are going to live and reign, they have to be resurrected. Verse five says that this is the first resurrection (as opposed to the rest who will be resurrected after the millenium, at the second resurrection).

These who take place in the first resurrection are blessed, because the will not die the second death.

Conclusion

Now, that was quite a bit to cover, and if you are not capable of storing and processing a lot of detail, as I am not, let me see if I can distill it down to a few sentences

We know from 1 Thess 4:16-17, that the dead rise first, then the living Christians are raptured.

In Rev 20:5, we see the First Resurrection

In Rev 20:4 we see that these resurrected ones, were in the Great Tribulation

If those who died in the Great Tribulation are later resurrected, and then the rapture follows that resurrection, then necessarily, the rapture is after the Great Tribulation, and therefore after the appearance of anti-christ. .