Methodist Church: Homosexuality is a Gift, Not a Sin

[nebula]

Now get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich.

*Takes out magic wand and waves it*

Poof! You are a sandwich.

[Smalcald]

I have never said that divorce is an unforgivable sin, so that would be a lie. Unrepentant adultery on the other hand is not going to be forgiven for those who refuse to repent of their adultery. In fact divorce is often not a sin at all. But what "church" are you talking about? The only Church that is hard on divorce is the Roman Catholic Church. Most of the other Churches today particularly the Evangelical and non-denominational churches seem to totally accept divorce, a good portion of the ministers are divorced.

I do think the topic helps us understand the temptations and challenges of those who must be celibate however. For example if a person is tempted to have sex with people of the same sex according to scripture this is sin,for a person plagued by these temptations the only option is celibacy which Paul as we know suggested for many Christians. But what about the man who cheats on his wife and leaves her? If she does not take him back what are his options? His options are the same as the gay man, celibacy. If he ignores scripture and married the women who he was in an adulterous relationship with the marriage would not be valid, it would simply be living in fornication as he is still married to his first wife. So the challenges are the same and I think it helps us have some compassion on those who wrestle with the gay perversion.

The reason I say let the topic go is that it is not an issue in my congregation it is not open to debate no one is agitating for gay acceptance; so if some other congregation is off the rails I can do nothing about that but pray and point out that it is wrong. What is a much bigger problem in my congregation is adultery, fornication and divorce, this is where the healing is needed.

That is false. Are you homoexual? Have you ever been homosexual? If not, then I would say that you can only see one side of the issue and you do not have it correctly figured out yet. Your church may be the exception, but most evangelical churches, while they give lip service to forgiving people of things in their past, when it comes to the issue of homosexuality, actually do not. You stating that they "100% accept homoexuality" is patently false. They treat homosexual people as if they are second-hand goods only good to fill a pew. Even if a man leaves his wife for homosexual easons, divorces her and re-marries, if he repents later on, with a true and repentant heart, he is not living in a constant state of unrepentant sin. That is false. And that is assuming re-marriage is not an option, because most people's understanding of the texts on divorce in the NT is severely flawed. According to Deuteronomy, no one who gets a legal divorce is still married.

If healing for this issues is neccesary within your own congregation, then I would suggest that you alter your attitude and understanding on the subject, because you are not going to be able to offer any "healing" to anyone in your present state of mind.

There is no reason to let the topic go, or turn it into yet another debate on the evils of divorce when we have someone saying divorce is acceptable.

I went ahead and altered your language a little but I think it may help us a little.

It does not do anything for the subject. This church is not talking about 'forgiving' people for their homosexuality. You cannot forgive someone for that type of sin, totally, until they stop practicing it. A person who is a practicing homosexual should never be shamed out of the church, turned away or ridiculed in any way. Thye should never be told they are a lesser person, but they cannot have a close relationship with Christ until they repent and quit sinning habitually. The expectation should always be that at some point, through the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and sound teaching on the subject, that the person will realize what they are doing is a sin, repent of it, and stop doing it.

It is not comparable to a man and a woman being married for the 'wrong' reasons. They sin once. The sin is not re-occuring time after time. To say otherwise is false and goes against clear biblical teaching on the subject. They have to repent, but they are not living in sin day after day. The re-marriage, if it even is a sin is a one-time act, it is not repetitive. There is no provision within scripture for any time of homosexual relationship of any kind.

This church does not see homosexuality as something to be corrected, i.e. not practicing it anymore. This church does not think it is a sin. This church thinks it is acceptable. They do not expect the people practicing homosexuality to repent and change. I know of no church that calls adultery, or even fornication a "gift from God."

First I agree there is no middle ground with sin for any of us, so a Church cannot simply accept fornication or accept homosexual lust, its clearly a sin.

I honestly believe that our Churches should speak more about biblical chastity what it means how to practice it, we also need to give people a way forward. So what is the way forward for someone who is only attracted to the same sex? There are two ways, the first is that the Holy Spirit will change their desires, this is possible as all things are possible with God, the second is that the person must remain chaste and also celibate for their life with no real change in their sexual temptations. From what we know this is the more likely course for many Christians who have this temptation. We have to be willing in my opinion to work with people and talk about the fact that celibacy is possible and is not "odd" in fact some of the Apostles were celibate men. This would apply to all people who are in situations where they must remain celibate and chaste in mind and spirit and there are many Christians who are called to do this.

Peace to you and I never meant to condemn or hurt anyone who is divorced or is left in that situation; the whole point of our faith is forgiveness for ALL sins and when or if we ever abandon that we are totally doomed.

[Byron A]

You wanna know where I stand on the subject of gay Christians? If they claim to be Christian, and I see love for others coming out of them (for example, charity, evangelism, etc.) I take them at their word and let the Holy Spirit clean up their lives.

I have not been called to point out the sin in fellow Christian's lives. I don't know, maybe you have. Although I doubt it. I have been called to worship God in fellowship with others. I worship with people of all walks of life every week. That worship brings them closer to God regardless of what sins are in their life. While they are there in His presence, then God can deal with their sin Himself. As long as one's sins are not hurting someone else, I allow God to handle them.

IMHO, sanctification is a separate matter from salvation. Sanctification is a long process, a process of becoming like Christ. And its a personal matter, between God the Holy Spirit and the believer. It will be different for each person.

I am also one who believes that sin does not take our salvation away. If God deals with a certain sin in that process of sanctification, and we ignore it, God will not cast us away. He may chastise us, and it may distance us from Him. We may even lose some of our rewards in the next life. But our salvation itself is assured. Do not the Scriptures say that nothing can separate us from His love? I believe that also includes sins.

I am done discussing this subject for the time being. I think everything that can be said on the subject has been said, so we will just continue to go in circles if we continue to discuss it. And going in circles is just a waste of time. It also serves to divide us.

Have a good day, and God bless you!

[wyguy]

You wanna know where I stand on the subject of gay Christians? If they claim to be Christian, and I see love for others coming out of them (for example, charity, evangelism, etc.) I take them at their word and let the Holy Spirit clean up their lives.

Good works are not proof of salvation. Even atheists can do good deeds.

I have not been called to point out the sin in fellow Christian's lives. I don't know, maybe you have. Although I doubt it.

"Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning." (1 Timothy 5:20)

"Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them." (Ephesians 5:11)

"This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith" (Titus 1:13)

IMHO, sanctification is a separate matter from salvation.

Without true salvation there will be no sanctification. I would doubt the salvation of anyone living in blatant, open rebellion to God's word.

[enoob57]

You want Scriptures to refute Original sin (the idea that we are responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve from birth)? Keep in mind in the Hebrew, "father" did not literally mean father, but any male direct male ancestor, including father, grandfather, great grandfather, etc.

First off, that is not the correct understanding of Original Sin. Orginal Sin is not that we are responsible for what Adam did, but that we inherited Adam's sin nature.

Adam was the reprentative or figurehead of man in the Garden of Eden. When Adam fell, we fell. We did not commit His sin collectively, but we collectively share in the consequence since all of humanity was in Adam.

In the Old Testament, in the Book of Ezekiel, God's people are rebuked for suggesting that the children would die/suffer for their father's sins:

Yes, but that is not a refutation of Original Sin. The "sins" we commit, we are responsible for. However, is the "sin nature" we inherit from Adam. We are not being held responsible for what Adam did, but all of humanity is born under a sentence of death, from which Christ went to the cross to redeem us. The result is the free gift of salvation offered to anyone who is willing to accept it.

Christ simply explained it sin is like leaven when introduced to the lump all becomes leavened.... Love Steven

[wyguy]

Now get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich.

*Takes out magic wand and waves it*

Poof! You are a sandwich.

[Smalcald]

Also there is a difference between personally rebuking someone and sound doctrine and teaching that leads someone to repentance. I have never rebuked anyone in my congregation and no one has ever rebuked me (except my wife and family).

I have been cut to the heart by the Word of God, by sermons and by what my congregation teaches however.

[~candice~]

Now that Byron has pulled out, are we all preaching to the choir?

[wyguy]

Now that Byron has pulled out, are we all preaching to the choir?

Bryon can't resist.....he'll be back.

But, if it's a good fight you're lookin' for, then I'll simply call you a cross-eyed baboon...

[enoob57]

But I'm not speaking of willful and habitual sin, rather misinterpretation of scripture. I do not believe that all who misinterpret scripture do so willfully and with a mind to twist the truth and deceive others. My only point is that we must be careful of suggesting that those who misinterpret scripture are unsaved. All of us see in part, dimly, with imperfect understanding.

If the topic were willful and habitual sin, then I would agree with you and man without hesitation.

God bless.

Gottcha.

In this case, I am not sure whether he is willful, but I realize very well where he gets his flawed view that homosexuality is suddenly acceptable and should be seen as "a gift from God." I know where this doctrine comes from, and the people who are purveyors of it do not mis-interpret scripture, they either flat out ignore it because they don't like what it says, or they flat out tell you it doesn't mean what it actually means. They insert stuff that isn't there, and take it waaaaay out of context. They don't mis-interpret scripture, they torture it until it says what they so badly want to hear.

The origins of this newly-discovered "temple prostitution" doctrine, i.e. that anywhere the Bible condemns homosexuality that it is refering to temple prostitutes is almost 100% espoused and furthered by pro-homosexual sites who erroneously believe one can be a willful, practicing, unrepentant homosexual and still be a good Christian, i.e. that homosexuality is not a sin. The Bible says otherwise. Sin is sin, but these people want to call something that is sin a "gift from God," in fact, that is exactly what they call it. And don't be mislead by their oh-so-friendly encouragement for "tolerance." What they want is not tolerance. I have dealt with Soulforce and they do not practice tolerance. Their goal is for the entire Christian community to declare homosexuality normal, acceptable and not sinful, by peaceful means if possible, but militant and hateful means if that's what it takes. And they will brook absolutely no discussion or opposition to their view.

So Byron's doctrine is not new to me, and I know where he got it. And if he is really what he says he is, he got conned and swallowed the lie hook, line, and sinker.

To Cobolt and man,

Yes, I do see what you are saying. There is some twisted doctrine out there being taught, not of genuine scriptural misinterpretation, but a desire to pervert teaching in order to make what is evil, seem good. A lot of the 'temple prostitute' garbage is of this ilk, but as Cobalt mentioned, we can never really be sure of the intent behind the twisting.

My hesitation is only because I don't want to see those who misunderstand scripture with good intentions, be condemned for it. I believe a whole of scripture approach to the 2 Pe 2 passage man presented, cannot indicate that misunderstanding leads to destruction, since scripture is crystal clear on what is required for salvation. It seems to fly in the face of my understanding of the seal of the Holy Spirit. I also note that the fruit of the spirit seems contrary to those who are 'unstable and unlearned'. Perhaps you'd like to add your understanding of who this passage is about and whether they are genuine spirit filled believers.

I hope you see there is a great deal of agreement in our understanding of this issue.

God bless

Here is the verse Candice is speaking of

Matt 6:22-23

22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad,

your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

NKJV

If we think we are right we search no further for the truth... but is it the Mind Of God or our own? The outcome will be either full of light or full of darkness for the

reasoning comes from that which is most within you. We can have mental thought idols... belief of God which is not Him yet believe it is-> Only His Word combined

with His Spirit can deliver us from ourselves! It is not with the harshness of the letter but the Love of Christ itself will cause us to let go of that we hold to take what

He offers us so that we become Him in us.... It is tested by how harsh the letter still seems as time goes by! Love Steven