Methodist Church: Homosexuality is a Gift, Not a Sin

[Guest shiloh357]

You wanna know where I stand on the subject of gay Christians? If they claim to be Christian, and I see love for others coming out of them (for example, charity, evangelism, etc.) I take them at their word and let the Holy Spirit clean up their lives.

I have not been called to point out the sin in fellow Christian's lives. I don't know, maybe you have. Although I doubt it. I have been called to worship God in fellowship with others. I worship with people of all walks of life every week. That worship brings them closer to God regardless of what sins are in their life. While they are there in His presence, then God can deal with their sin Himself. As long as one's sins are not hurting someone else, I allow God to handle them.

IMHO, sanctification is a separate matter from salvation. Sanctification is a long process, a process of becoming like Christ. And its a personal matter, between God the Holy Spirit and the believer. It will be different for each person.

I am also one who believes that sin does not take our salvation away. If God deals with a certain sin in that process of sanctification, and we ignore it, God will not cast us away. He may chastise us, and it may distance us from Him. We may even lose some of our rewards in the next life. But our salvation itself is assured. Do not the Scriptures say that nothing can separate us from His love? I believe that also includes sins.

I am done discussing this subject for the time being. I think everything that can be said on the subject has been said, so we will just continue to go in circles if we continue to discuss it. And going in circles is just a waste of time. It also serves to divide us.

Have a good day, and God bless you!

The problem with this position is that ignores one simple biblical principle. When a person is living in habitual sin, they are proviing that they were never saved in the first place. A true Christian cannot live in sin and enjoy it. A true Christian is not one who lives in habitual daily sin. The Bible says in Titus that it is the grace of God that teaches us to say "no" to ungodliness and that this same grace teaches us to live pure lives in holiness in view of the Lord's return. So the notion that a person can live a sinful lifestyle yet claim to be a Christian and we should just take their word for it, is simply not a biblical position. The Bible further states in I John 3 that whoever is born of God cannot live in habitual sin (I Jn. 3:9)

In addition, sanctification IS part of salvation. We are sanctified unto God the minute we are saved and the ongoing daily process of sanctification is the direct result of salvation. So to say that sanctification is not part of salvation is also false. Sanctification is as much private as it is public in that God deals with us privately, but our progess in Sanctification is evident to the world in that faith without works are dead, and it is our good works that glorify God in the sight of men AND demonstrate publicly that our profession of faith in Christ is authentic.

[ayin jade]

Ive been reading this with interest and would like to toss in my 2 cents now.

The bible tells us in 1 Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 5

1

[xequedox]

This is very sad to see, and very heartbreaking.

Praying for the people to realize what is true

Devils deception is growinig stronger in the hearts of people. Eventually the world will seem to be a giant contradiction to what God really wants!

Im extremly worried for innocent people who are being decieved by statements like these

Though i think most people can see this is clearly ridiculousness lol c'mon rlly?

[~candice~]

First I agree there is no middle ground with sin for any of us, so a Church cannot simply accept fornication or accept homosexual lust, its clearly a sin.

I honestly believe that our Churches should speak more about biblical chastity what it means how to practice it, we also need to give people a way forward. So what is the way forward for someone who is only attracted to the same sex? There are two ways, the first is that the Holy Spirit will change their desires, this is possible as all things are possible with God, the second is that the person must remain chaste and also celibate for their life with no real change in their sexual temptations. From what we know this is the more likely course for many Christians who have this temptation. We have to be willing in my opinion to work with people and talk about the fact that celibacy is possible and is not "odd" in fact some of the Apostles were celibate men. This would apply to all people who are in situations where they must remain celibate and chaste in mind and spirit and there are many Christians who are called to do this.

Peace to you and I never meant to condemn or hurt anyone who is divorced or is left in that situation; the whole point of our faith is forgiveness for ALL sins and when or if we ever abandon that we are totally doomed.

I don't think you are giving Jesus and the Holy Spirit enough credit as to how much change they can affect on a person's heart and spirit when they truly walk with Christ. I believe that anyone who truly accepts Christ and seeks to have as close a relationship with Him as possible and please Him will be convicted to change sinfull acts in their life and be empowered at the same time to do so. Not all at once in the majority of cases, and it may always be a struggle, but it is always possible. People often do not give the Holy Spirit enough credit for the change He can effect and we often try and do His job for him and force conviction on someone and that is not our job. We need to always point sin out when we see it, but not beat people over the heads with it. My seniors pastor put it best, I think. He made the following remark to me one time when I was struggling with something, namely, alcohol:

"People think that when you become a Christian there are all kinds of things you can't do. That is not accurate. When you become a Christian, what you want to do will change."

The Bible says this will happen very clearly:

2 Corinthians 5:16-18 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

This church not only leads people to believe that homosexual behavior isn't sinful and allows them to play russian roulette with their salvation, it actually cheats them of realizing the full power which the Holy Spirit can affect within their lives in the form of healing and sanctification. This pastor denies the power of God.

Awesome post. Amen!

[Guest Butero]

If your point JohnDB is to tell us there are other sins in the church besides homosexuality, I agree. If your point is to say that those who are not perfect are not qualified to take a position against sin, I disagree.

Matthew 7:1-5 (KJV)

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother

[Guest Butero]

Do you not see a difference between false teachers, and your layman christian misinterpreting the Word?

If they are not teaching their misinterpretations, then yes, there is a difference. But when they're repeatedly confronted and shown the error of their interpretation and they refuse to back down and accept the truth, then there is no difference. They are saying, "My interpretation is the correct interpretation".

Homosexuality is not a gift from God. It is not an accepted behavior of anyone who claims to be a christian. There is nothng in the bible that supports homosexual activity. When someone comes here and tries to use scripture to support the homosexual lifestyle, they are twisting scripture into something that it isn't. The bible is crystal clear on this issue. There are no grey areas.

Most of us here are "layman christians", but when we put our words out here for the world to see, we become witness' for the Word and our words better be true. If they're not, we better be willing to learn.

I condemn any sexual activity outside of marriage as sinful. That includes homosexual activities. However, "being gay" doesn't necessarily mean you are sexually active. There are celibate homosexuals just like there are celibate heterosexuals. I ran across a group of gay Christians one time on the net who believed gay sexual activity was wrong. The vowed to remain celibate their whole lives.

Is this pastor promoting sexual activities outside the marriage covenant, or is he just promoting accepting who you are? If the former, than I agree that he is promoting fornication. However, if the latter, than I can't say that I disagree with him too much.

It appears to me that church was promoting fornication. I can't see anyone attacking an individual for being tempted to do something wrong. Everyone is weak is one area or another. If someone is simply tempted to commit fornication, and that person is a homosexual, unless they act on it, I don't see them as guilty of anything. Of course, lust is a sin, but only they would know if they are battling with that? Being heterosexual, I am attracted to women, but that doesn't mean I go around lusting after every woman I see. I would imagine the same thing applies to homosexuals?

[Guest Butero]

Do you not see a difference between false teachers, and your layman christian misinterpreting the Word?

If they are not teaching their misinterpretations, then yes, there is a difference. But when they're repeatedly confronted and shown the error of their interpretation and they refuse to back down and accept the truth, then there is no difference. They are saying, "My interpretation is the correct interpretation".

Homosexuality is not a gift from God. It is not an accepted behavior of anyone who claims to be a christian. There is nothng in the bible that supports homosexual activity. When someone comes here and tries to use scripture to support the homosexual lifestyle, they are twisting scripture into something that it isn't. The bible is crystal clear on this issue. There are no grey areas.

Most of us here are "layman christians", but when we put our words out here for the world to see, we become witness' for the Word and our words better be true. If they're not, we better be willing to learn.

I condemn any sexual activity outside of marriage as sinful. That includes homosexual activities. However, "being gay" doesn't necessarily mean you are sexually active. There are celibate homosexuals just like there are celibate heterosexuals. I ran across a group of gay Christians one time on the net who believed gay sexual activity was wrong. The vowed to remain celibate their whole lives.

Is this pastor promoting sexual activities outside the marriage covenant, or is he just promoting accepting who you are? If the former, than I agree that he is promoting fornication. However, if the latter, than I can't say that I disagree with him too much.

Reason with me a little, please.

Let's say that you had a desire to murder. Should you promote accepting who you are; a person who desires to murder?

Let's say you had a desire to steal. Should you promote accepting who you are; a person who desires to steal?

How about a greedy nature?

I think it is clear to Christians that we should not promote an acceptance of anything that is not in the Will of God. Anything that is not of Him, we should not be tolerating in us. So why should we promote 'accepting who you are' as a gay person, when we know that this desire isn't from God?

I think it pushes the bounds. Debating whether or not it is deemed sin is really a strawman. I don't care what label it ends up with. It's a desire that is not from Him, so why fight so hard to try and make it acceptable? How about just a confession: Lord Jesus, please strip from me anything that isn't of You, transform my mind by the power of Your Word.

Ro 12

¹ Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God

[Guest Butero]

A theology course I once took said that everyone brings assumptions to the table in any debate. Every theologian, every politician, every layman. Once we figure out what those assumptions and debate them, we are actually getting somewhere.

It seems like one of your assumptions is that man is fallen from birth, so any desires and urges we are born with should automatically be suspect. I disagree. We are born perfect and innocent. We have the undistorted image of God within us at birth. Yes, Adam and Eve brought sin into the world. I completely agree with that. And we are more susceptible to committing sin because of the influence of the sin of Adam and Eve, as well as the influence of all the sins that are committed around us. Not to mention that the very world around us has a fallen nature. However, a baby is innocent, free from sin. Is this not the whole idea behind the age of accountability, and children automatically being saved up to that age?

I guess my view is that if we compare it to "Nature vs. nurture" debate, I come out on the side of sin being "nurtured".

Not everyone believes that. I believe we were born in sin, and even if we never did anything you could point to as being sinful, we would still need a savior. We are born into this world with the stain of Adam's sin. That is one reason why the virgin birth was so essential. Jesus wasn't born in sin as we were. He was perfect, and as such, he was a perfect sacrifice. There is no Biblical age of accountability that I have seen in scripture. According to 1 Corinthians, children are under the blood coverning of their believing parents.

[Guest Butero]

Perhaps there is some confusion here because Byron was discussing the difference between those who act on their temptations, and those who don't. This spurred a discussion on temptation. 1 Cor 10:13 makes is crystal clear that a homosexual can resist. 1 Cor 6:9-11 makes it crystal clear that they should resist.

And this pastor says they shouldn't resist, because their temptations are a gift from God. The same God who says homosexuality is an abomination. Byron says he does not think that this Pastor is endorsing or encouraging sin. Byron also said he has no problem with homosexual acts if the couple is monogamous and 'married,' even though they cannot be married, biblically-speaking. Both assertions are false. So Byron may or may not be confused. One thing is clear, however, he is 100% wrong on both counts.

If he is saying that two homosexuals can be married and therefore ok, I agree he is wrong. God created marriage between a man and a woman. He never allowed for two men or two women to marry. The world can call anything they wish marriage, but that doesn't make it ok with God. If the government decided to allow a man to marry a goat, that wouldn't make it a marriage in the sight of God.

[Guest Butero]

Sherlock, you noticed too? Byron, what is your position on homosexual acts within a monogomous same sex relationship?

I think gay sexual activity is sinful. However, heterosexuals have romantic relationships that do not involve sex. I see no reason why homosexuals cannot.

When two heterosexual people are involved in a non-sexual romantic relationships, it is usually while they are dating, and there is a possibility they may one day marry? How would this work with homosexuals, if no sexual activity was in their future? It makes no sense.