The Error of Treating Christian Piety synonymously with Patriotism

[Smalcald]

It is an issue to consider.

Christianity is a Catholic faith it is universal, the only problem with mixing up patriotism for the USA and our faith is that we forget that sometimes they don't go together and we start thinking that we are the center of Christianity in the world which must be really annoying for the vast majority of believers today who do not live in the US.

Also most really bad things that the Christian Church has done over the centuries have been through and because of its relationship to the State. The State will corrupt us long before we bring salvation to the State.

There is scripture which would also lead us to separate the two;

24

[~candice~]

It is an issue to consider.

Christianity is a Catholic faith it is universal, the only problem with mixing up patriotism for the USA and our faith is that we forget that sometimes they don't go together and we start thinking that we are the center of Christianity in the world which must be really annoying for the vast majority of believers today who do not live in the US.

Also most really bad things that the Christian Church has done over the centuries have been through and because of its relationship to the State. The State will corrupt us long before we bring salvation to the State.

There is scripture which would also lead us to separate the two;

24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."

Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

0 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;

Be instructed, you judges of the earth.

11 Serve the LORD with fear,

And rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest He[c] be angry,

And you perish in the way,

When His wrath is kindled but a little.

Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

Yes, totally agree . I have a question though, is patriotism always a 'master'?

[oldzimm]

It has even made me wonder if the American flag in the area where worship services are held is even good discipleship.

If I recall correctly there's some legal issue that requires the American flag there - something regarding public meeting places (not targeting churches, but as a building designed to be a public meeting place).

If so it's terrible that in a free society people should be forced to display an idol of the state.

First, I don't think it is a legal issue for "Old Glory" to be displayed in the Church. "Old Glory" being displayed in the Church (Or anywhere) represents something that is being lost here in the USA and around the world, that representation is called RESPECT.

Here in the USA, that respect is for the men and women who fought for this country, because they love their country and want to give something back, knowing that it could cost them their life. That respect is for all of the hard working men and women on farms, in factories, on the docks or anywhere else where their sweat and blood mixed. These men and women worked hard so they could carve out a better life for their families, years ago that was called working for the "American Dream" and they didn't need or expect any free from handouts the the government, they earned every precious inch of Freedom they had.

Second, The American Flag, "Old Glory", is NOT an idol. The American Flag represents all the above mentioned men and Women. The American Flag has been spit on, torn, shot, burned and everything else imaginable. All these disrespectful people have something in common,"they don't seem to realize that they are only destroying a piece of cloth, the real American Flag is in the hearts of every United States citizen and you can't destroy it".

We can say the same thing about our Holy Bible, you can destroy it, but you can't destroy God's word because his word is in our hearts.

Third, Patriotism is not a master (Least not in this country), in the USA, Patriotism is love of country. After writing all the above, do I need to say more on how we show our love for our country?

[amor]

What makes America so different in this issue, though, is because "God and country" has been a root to our culture.

It's not a particularly American thing. I live in a country where the Head of State is also the head of the national church and "defender of the faith", which is clearly absolute nonsense....

What you have in Britain is completely different from what we have in America.

The danger of believing that the policies of the state are divinely ordained or justified is present in both

[amor]

A country is just an man made entity, and countries are ephemeral :they are created; they grow; they contract; they cease to exist. Patriotism involves trying to make that entity into a god. Look at the language of patriotism it's roots are in pagan; very often Roman. The idea that one gains glory by dying for one's country is, for example, profoundly unChristian.

We should use the political process to make the societies we live in better places to live, but refrain from nonsensical state worship.

[oldzimm]

A country is just an man made entity, and countries are ephemeral :they are created; they grow; they contract; they cease to exist. Patriotism involves trying to make that entity into a god. Look at the language of patriotism it's roots are in pagan; very often Roman. The idea that one gains glory by dying for one's country is, for example, profoundly unChristian.

We should use the political process to make the societies we live in better places to live, but refrain from nonsensical state worship.

Nobody said anything about making a country into a God, But you.

Is dying for others unchristian?

So what would you call Jesus dying for us on the cross?

Before I went to war, friends and family had a dinner for me. One of my friends had his son there, the boy was two years old. After the dinner I stood up, pointed to the little boy and said "This is why I'm going to war, so his generation and generations to come don't have to fear walking down the street and having buildings or cars blowing up around them". That's called LOVE for my fellow man and you call it paganism.

Patriotism isn't a language, Patriotism is LOVE. For you to state that patriotism is the language of pagans, is enough to make me puke, the mind set of some people just amaze me.

[oldzimm]

I just realized something, I'm debating with a man that has no clue what American Patriotism is, it is pointless to debate. Amor your country may not know what American Patriotism is or feels like, but your country sure felt the wrath of our patriotism, twice, once to gain our freedom and once to keep it.

GOD BLESS AMERICA........okay, okay...........AND ENGLAND

[nebula]

The danger of believing that the policies of the state are divinely ordained or justified is present in both

No, they aren't.

The only "policy" our state believes is divinely ordained is: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Any association of our laws with the divine are as to whether or not our laws are in line with Divine law (for those that care).

[Guest Butero]

I am very devout to my faith and calling and I love my country. I have two sons who are actively serving our country (USA). But I tire of people who speak so passionately about politics and merge it with matters of Christian piety. Who tie it so closely to the cause of the church. It has even made me wonder if the American flag in the area where worship services are held is even good discipleship. I serve many who will spend 3-4 hours a day with FOX news and a hour with their Bible a week and they consider themselves good churchmen. Does anybody else feel we need to be careful equating patriotism with Christian piety?

The people in places of authority effect the church as a result of the laws they pass. As such, it is important to be politically active. You questioned whether or not the American flag should be in places of worship? How do you feel about a Christmas tree in the church or a picture of Jesus? I have always questioned whether or not the Christmas tree was a distraction, and whether or not a picture of Jesus leads people to worship an image? Just interested in your thoughts?

Then there is the question of comparing listening to Fox News with time spent in the Bible. How many hours a week does someone need to spend in the the Bible to make them a good Christian? I would also point out that it is much easier to listen to Fox News 3 hours a day than to spend 3 hours a day in the Bible. I listen to the radio up to 14 hours a day when I am working, and many hours are spent on the Fox News Channel or listening to conservative talk radio. I listen to the southern gospel channel too, but never kept a journal of how much time I spend on one format verses another?

As for the most important question you asked, "Do we need to be careful equating patriotism with Christian piety?" I would say they are two differen't things. The reason why the church needs to be involved in politics is because it is in our best interest, not because it makes us more holy. Even the Apostle Paul took advantage of his Roman citizenship. It just makes good sense to do what we can to fight to keep America a good place to live.

[Guest yod]

It's not a particularly American thing. I live in a country where the Head of State is also the head of the national church and "defender of the faith", which is clearly absolute nonsense. It's something that for Christianity, started with Constantine. It didn't make the Roman Empire "Holy" and those who think that their country is some how more Godly than others are dangerously deluded. The UK, the USA,and all the rest are just transient human creations, not worthy of veneration.

we find much common ground with that statement.

A country is just an man made entity, and countries are ephemeral :they are created; they grow; they contract; they cease to exist. Patriotism involves trying to make that entity into a god. Look at the language of patriotism it's roots are in pagan; very often Roman. The idea that one gains glory by dying for one's country is, for example, profoundly unChristian.

We should use the political process to make the societies we live in better places to live, but refrain from nonsensical state worship.

and I'm with you on that one....

The danger of believing that the policies of the state are divinely ordained or justified is present in both

If God is sovereign (and He is) then all states are "divinely ordained" so it's really a matter of what that purpose is. What looks like disasters to us are quite often the way He brings the miracles.

I'm just grateful that I haven't had to suffer the persecution (yet) of the brave saints who live in countries like North Korea, or China, or Sudan, or Iran, or Eygpt, or Gaza, or Bethlehem, or Pakistan.