Why the Same-Sex Marriage Experiment Will Not Work

[Valoran]

I am only going to deal with your one comment right now because you do not want to go down that road with me. Saying that something is wrong and a sin does not equate with hate and intolerance. That is simply word-spin to make something look bad when it actually is not and I will not ever leave that type of dishonest behavior unchecked. If I see someone robbing another person at gun-point, to tell the robber that their behavior is wrong is not "hatred" or "intolerance." It is simply stating a fact. No hatred or intolerance is involved, beyond that which you are attempting to interject somewhere where there is none. A Christian stating that homosexuality is both wrong and a sin is simply a statement of biblical fact.

Were you stating a fact when you said that homosexuals made a choice to be homosexual?

Were you stating a fact when you said that homosexuals do not respect marriage, and wish to degrade marriage in particular and all morals in in general?

Were you stating a fact when you said that homosexuals do not have the right to marriage?

What you're trying to pull here is to inject hateful and intolerant personal opinions about homosexuals into your post, and then later claim that you were just stating facts and saying that homosexuality as a behavior is wrong, when the truth is that your posts went well beyond that to bash and demonize homosexuals. If you can post emotionally-charged, baseless attacks on the character and motivations of homosexuals, you should at least be willing to stand by your words and take credit and responsibility for them.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Valoran

[Guest]

All

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23

Yes All

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

But God

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:5-10

Still Stands

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 3:19-22

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.... Were you stating a fact when you said that homosexuals made a choice to be homosexual?....

Free

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. John 8:34

My People

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:34-36

Don't Blame Your Creator

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15

Don't Blame

Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:16-17

God

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

See?

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:19-21

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Believe

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[Guest]

As for being discriminated against socially, that is false as well. They have the right to live with their partner as long as they wish, and they really have no wish to marry beyond obtaining a financial benefit from such a union. They do not have respect for the institution of marriage. Their wish to have the right to marry is merely an effort to degrade morals further and make marriage itself meaningless, as well as any kind of moral boundaries on anything. No "right" has been taken away from them, because they never had it in the first place.

Two things I want to comment on. First, marriage has legal benefits numbering in the hundreds, and not all of them are financial. Not to mention marriage is in part a religious sacrament, and according to the US Constitution there can be no law that promotes or hinders a religious belief per se - so forcing the secular institution of marriage (marriage under US law) to adopt the religious definition (one man one women only) is kind of unconstitutional.

Second, as far as their "rights" not being taken away, a lot of African American's didn't have the right to be citizens or to be protected under the Constitution before 1868. So before then you could use the same argument saying that to ensure many blacks aren't protected under the Constitution nor are able to become citizens is not a violation of their rights, as they never had these rights to begin with. Same argument applies to, well, almost any right or privilege anyone enjoys, if you go back far enough.

Going

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply Genesis 1:28(a-c)

Back

The reasons for the decline of the Empire are still debated today, and likely multiple.

Historians infer that the population appears to have diminished in many provinces—especially western Europe—from the diminishing size of fortifications built to protect the cities from barbarian incursions from the 3rd century on.

Some historians even have suggested that parts of the periphery were no longer inhabited because these fortifications were restricted to the center of the city only. Tree rings suggest "distinct drying" beginning in 250.

http://en.wikipedia....he_Roman_Empire

Far Enough

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Genesis 6:5

And To The Future

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37-39

Beloved, Believe It~!

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:22

[OldShep]

I reach into a 50 year old storage crib and I remove a small dry seed

It's not a matter of a seed. It's where you choose to toil and plant. Try: 2 Timothy 2:23-24

My advice is based on experience but let God guide you. I've said my part. Bye!

I have Tried: 2 Timothy 2:23-24 plus a whole bunch of other passages as well.

Is it not God's plan to bring the seed of Truth to those who do not know Him or have turned their backs to His Great Love for us?

Why should we stop and read only a small part of his words, to justify such a statement as "It's a waste to reply to ???". If God gave up on man so easily, do you think we would be reading: " Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Do you think that Jesus gave up trying to bring the Truth to those who did not believe in Him so easily?

Could giving up be based on something other then the desire to bring truth to the nonbeliever? Does Satan gives up trying to ripped the believer from truth and into the evil desires of the flesh?

We speak the truth to a person and they not to sprout into a living growing Christian before our very eye's, so we throw our hands in the air and stomp away in disgust and declare it " a total waste of our time". Is it really a waste of time?

This sounds like we want to be the ones that not only plant the seed, we also want to be the one that waters it and the one to provide light to it so that it grows in us, not in God.

It sounds like me, I quit because I'm resentful toward the nonbeliever, because they have not responded to me, in a way that I "desired them" to respond... I feel rejected and hurt and in anger I sound out with statements that are made from my prideful and hurting self, seeking acknowledgement from mankind. It is nice to be accepted, not to be alone, but at times one needs to stand firm in their choice to speak the truth and leave it at that, allowing God to do His part in bringing a person back home. We should leave our feelings of being rejected by mankind, out of the picture for in our hearts we know we are accepted by God.

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work. Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.

(2 Timothy 2:15-24 NIV)

ICL Dennis

[OneLight]

There is all forms of sexual perversion in the world, some that make me sick to consider anyone would do them, but they are done. Is it the consensus of those who believe homosexuals are born this way, that those who desire a dead person or an animal are also the same and are just as sane? If not, what gives you the right to draw a line?

[OldShep]

And both the thoughts and actions are 100% controllable.

I do not think that a thought, is 100% controllable, I can dismiss them but as a man I can not totally stop them. I can chose not to dwell on them, but, I can not stop them from coming. Plus I would add that not all, as 100% of actions may not be controlled, for at time we react to something without thinking about it. Military training, takes the thought process out of some actions. (not, the ones you are talking about thou)....

ICL Dennis.

[Valoran]

It isn't a conscious choice? They have to have sex with people of the same sex and to commit a sex act is beyond their control? I would think that even they would find that statement shocking. I seem to remember making a personal choice to have sex every time I did it. I don't remember it being beyond my control.

There are studies and theories. And they do not, as you said, agree. I know what God says on the subject, and as a Christian, I do not require any further input on the subject. If God created a human being "homosexual," then He could not then hold that person responsible for their sin, or, in fact, any one of us for our sin. We sin on our own and God has nothing to do with it. We are born with a sin nature and we make bad conscious choices. Homosexual sex is just one of the myriad of bad choices we can make. If people are born homosexual, then they are also born adulterers, child molesters, chiuld abusers, thieves, murders, etc., etc., etc. Any poor behavior could be labeled as "born with" and beyond a person's control. I've been an alcoholic. I've been an adulterer, but I was not born that way. I made a conscious and poor choice to engage in the behavior and it was always within my ability to stop.

Homosexuality is more than the act of sex itself, it's a sexual orientation. It is this sexual orientation that isn't voluntary. Again, your attacks on homosexuality is based purely on religious grounds, and you've apparently made it clear that you'll brook no discussion regarding your opinions. That's all well and good if you're a Christian, but why would you expect the rest of the public at large to accept such a heavy-handed argument?

For over 200 years, in this particular country, and almost every country on the face of the earth for 1000's of years, marriage has been defined, by governments in authority, as being between a man and a woman. Only. As to who made the decision, that is an easy one for a Christian, God did as he has clearly said that homosexuality is wrong. It is not permissible in any form. Is that difficult to understand? So, as a Christian, I am not supposed to say homosexuality is acceptable, no matter who is advocating it's acceptance, even if it is the prevailing government. Is that hard to grasp?

If you're going to point to the governments in authority to define what marriage is, then you have no argument if those same governments in authority decide to change their definition as necessary.

No, I do not expect you to say that homosexuality is acceptable. What I am surprised by is how you come out swinging with hateful, bigoted claims that are based purely on your personal opinions and then try to pass yourself off as a dutiful Christian, and how many other Christians try to do the same thing as you do... but then again, I'm in no position to judge anyone myself either.

When the morals of a waning society degrade, they do not just go to a certain place and stop. Homosexuality is not healthy for anyone engaged in it, physically, emotionally or mentally. Subjecting one's body to something it was not designed for, whether it is homosexual sex or throwing one's self off of a building is not good for it and has adverse results every time. Homosexuality encourages others who also wish to have their immorality legitimized to go ahead and make inroads as well, which we are already seeing happening with pedophiles. Not to mention what homosexuality does to the family unit.

You are still operating off the assumption that homosexuality is immoral in the first place. If we try to inspect the premise behind your assumption, we find only a religious basis, which you've already made clear is not up for debate. If we remove that assumption, your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

It's rather difficult to reason things out with someone who's indicated that he's already made up his mind and will accept no further input. But the fact is that "morals" (what a general term, don't you think?) is often used as a carte blanche blanket excuse to oppress and discriminate against certain segments of society, as has been demonstrated by various fascist/racist groups and governments throughout history. People who are truly on the side of morality seldom need to invoke "morality" as a justification for their actions, because their actions are already self-evidently moral. History has taught us that it's invariably the side that shouts itself hoarse that it's championing "morality" that we need to keep an eye out for.

The church is damned to the unbelievers eyes anyway. It does not much matter what the church says is wrong, because the unbeliever doesn't understand the overall concept anyway. It isn't my job to worry about that.

Well, if you aren't concerned about gaining allies in championing your cause and don't mind if you alienate everyone else at large, I suppose that explains a large part of your actions.

And actually, when you attempt to label any opposition to homosexuality and gay marriage as "homophobic," "intolerant," or "hatred" you are, in fact, trying to get people to stop speaking their minds. You are doing so right here in this thread any time you label someone saying homosexuality is wrong as a hater. That line of thought will never work here. There is no homophobic "ranting spree." Are you being forced to read it? Are you here against your will? We are to do, and not do certain things as a Christian and they are not optional.

Cobalt, apparently when you post hateful opinions, it's called "saying the truth", but when others point out what you're doing, it's called trying to stop you from speaking.

You're right that I'm not here against my will or forced to read your rants. But if we're going to bring the topic of will into it, the homosexuals aren't forcing you to join them and recant your Christian beliefs either. They're perfectly willing to live and let live, at least for now. Why do you try to apply such gross double standards; one for yourself and Christians, and one for everyone else? Do you think that's moral, too?

But there's another reason why I'm posting in this thread. You may not be forcing me to read your rants, but you and people like you are trying to lobby the governments in authority into listening to you. Despite the principle of separation of church and state, the Christian lobbies are attempting to push onto legistation their views which are not only grounded solely on a religious basis, but they will brook no discussion about it either. This is a very dangerous direction for the country to go in.

[OldShep]

]You may not be forcing me to read your rants, but you and people like you are trying to lobby the governments in authority into listening to you. [/quote]

Is this not true for both sides of the issue?

The same ears that listen to one side also listen to the other. They then make the Laws which both sides respect, and abide to while still holding true to their individual "core principals". God has given all men a great gift, that gift is the power to choose.

Yes, you have this power, regardless of your religious beliefs. You have this power, there is nothing outside of yourself to force you to make the decisions that you make. You do it, because you want to do it, you make the choice. Speak and be heard and move on with Life. Many look back on their choices in life and if they were bad, they start looking for something or someone to blame. Whom stall you blame, God? No God loves you. We hurt ourselves through the bad use of a Great Gift, the Power to Choose.

ICL Dennis

[Valoran]

You may not be forcing me to read your rants, but you and people like you are trying to lobby the governments in authority into listening to you.

Is this not true for both sides of the issue?

OldShep, you're absolutely right.

But let's look at what both sides are asking for. The homosexuals are asking that a consenting couple of legal age be granted the right to marry, just like everyone else. The Christian lobbies are asking that a particular segment of society be denied the right to marry, and the basis behind their request is a purely religious one.

The Christian lobbies argue that homosexuality is a dangerous trend, but who's more dangerous here, really? One side is seeking a basic social right, while the other is trying to impose its religious beliefs on everyone else whether we're religious or otherwise, and has made it clear that it cannot be reasoned with because its justifications are not up for debate.

I understand that homosexuality is a sin according to Christian beliefs. However, I think that it might be more beneficial both for homosexuals and the Christian cause itself if the Christian lobbies were to spread the message in a less confrontational and condemning manner, such as setting up counseling centers and offering aid to homosexuals who wish to change themselves (I assume there must be some who do). Because, let's face it, what is brandishing hateful attitudes in public going to solve?

[OldShep]

You may not be forcing me to read your rants, but you and people like you are trying to lobby the governments in authority into listening to you.

Is this not true for both sides of the issue?

OldShep, you're absolutely right.

But let's look at what both sides are asking for. The homosexuals are asking that a consenting couple of legal age be granted the right to marry, just like everyone else. The Christian lobbies are asking that a particular segment of society be denied the right to marry, and the basis behind their request is a purely religious one.

The Christian lobbies argue that homosexuality is a dangerous trend, but who's more dangerous here, really? One side is seeking a basic social right, while the other is trying to impose its religious beliefs on everyone else whether we're religious or otherwise, and has made it clear that it cannot be reasoned with because its justifications are not up for debate.

I understand that homosexuality is a sin according to Christian beliefs. However, I think that it might be more beneficial both for homosexuals and the Christian cause itself if the Christian lobbies were to spread the message in a less confrontational and condemning manner, such as setting up counseling centers and offering aid to homosexuals who wish to change themselves (I assume there must be some who do). Because, let's face it, what is brandishing hateful attitudes in public going to solve?

Respect! both sides have a God given right to be heard. Both sides would like the other to run away and do their talking some place other then the ear of the Law Makers, which is not going to happen. Thus both side will have to deal with ?? what comes out of this, for our enemies in the world they may gain another reason to cut the heads off the infidels, as some call our military personnel.

ICL Dennis.