trinity explained

[JohnD]

On 3/15/2017 at 1:23 AM, brakelite said:

John, one of your very own correct statements, that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, is the most powerful argument against the modern church's teaching on the trinity. Now don't get me wrong, I am not denying the existence of 3 manifestations of the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. What I do deny is the co-equal, co-eternal, consubstantial, co-lateral, coordinate and self-originated principles ascribed to each one, which turns the whole concept to a proper notion of 3 gods.

Now why is the fact readily and freely confessed by all, the Sonship of Jesus, an argument against the trinity? Simple. Because if you believe in the trinity as I described above, the Fatherhood of God and the Sonship of Christ is relegated to nothing more than a metaphor. A metaphorical Father did not send a metaphorical Son to die for me.

As for the holy Spirit being a third co-equal entity in a trinity, the fact that it is described as the Spirit OF God or the Spirit OF Christ (see Romans 8:9 as an example) throughout scripture, renders the nature of the Spirit as being posesssed by God, and when we consider that the Spirit was sent by God to us as a gift, and given to Jesus (John 3:34) , is indicative that the Spirit is under the authority of the Father, as was His Son and will be throughout eternity. (1 Cor. 15:28).

Texts such as the following can only be understood in the context I have just described above.

John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, (the first Comforter being the Father 2 Cor. 1:3) that he may abide with you for ever;
17  Even the Spirit of truth; ("I am the Way, the Truth....)whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you,  (present tense Jesus speaking of Himself spiritually and physically present with them) and shall  (future tense) be in you. (by His Spirit only,  due to restrictions He is now encumbered with being a man and able only to be present physically in one place at one time).
18 ¶  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.  (Not a third being, but Christ, but Christ in Spirit form.) See also Galatians 2:20; John 14:20; John 17:21; 2 Cor. 13:5; Eph 3:17; Col. 1:27; and

1 John 5:12  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

......among many others. Is it Christ in us, the hope of glory? ....or someone else? Is it a literal Son of the Father?...or an idea...a metaphor?

 

Philippians 2:5–11 (AV)
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 10:5 and Hebrews 1:5 clearly indicate the sonship of Jesus is not eternal but came as an additional nature to GOD the Word.  GOD the Word.

In Philippians 2:6 above the phrase translated in English "being in the form of God" (in the Greek) morphe theos huparchon (never ceasing to be God).

Your entire premise is base on your stubborn refusal to accept what scripture teaches that one God consists of three equal persons.

 

[brakelite]

"Your entire premise is base on your stubborn refusal to accept what scripture teaches that one God consists of three equal persons."

 I stubbornly refuse to accept three equal persons because the very fact that the Son is begotten, and the Father unbegotten, makes them different. This removes nothing however from Jesus' divinity, which He naturally inherited from His Father. But if one is to claim Jesus as equal in every respect, then He must of necessity cease to be begotten,which in your case is a "stubborn refusal to accept what scripture teaches" that God gave an only begotten Son. Begotten means literally, unique. If Jesus is unique among the members of the Godhead, how can He be equal?

 

[JohnD]

3 hours ago, brakelite said:

"Your entire premise is base on your stubborn refusal to accept what scripture teaches that one God consists of three equal persons."

 I stubbornly refuse to accept three equal persons because the very fact that the Son is begotten, and the Father unbegotten, makes them different. This removes nothing however from Jesus' divinity, which He naturally inherited from His Father. But if one is to claim Jesus as equal in every respect, then He must of necessity cease to be begotten,which in your case is a "stubborn refusal to accept what scripture teaches" that God gave an only begotten Son. Begotten means literally, unique. If Jesus is unique among the members of the Godhead, how can He be equal?

 

The Son has a dual nature! And only his physical nature was begotten. His Spirit is just as much God as the Father or the Holy Spirit.

The additional nature makes him unique, distinct, unlike anyone or anything in Heaven or on Earth. But it does not diminish his full deity.

Colossians 2:9 (AV)
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And as I already pointed out:

 

5 hours ago, JohnD said:

Philippians 2:5–11 (AV)
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 10:5 and Hebrews 1:5 clearly indicate the sonship of Jesus is not eternal but came as an additional nature to GOD the Word.  GOD the Word.

In Philippians 2:6 above the phrase translated in English "being in the form of God" (in the Greek) morphe theos huparchon (never ceasing to be God).

 

[JohnD]

Jesus is the bridge between God and man accomplished only by being both God and man.

He started out as uncreated unbegotten God...

He continues to be this exact same way while taking upon himself the nature of a man...

which the scriptures indicate does not affect his consistently being God.

 

[JohnD]

Apologetics is necessary for the convincing of those who loathe to be convinced of truths like this.

And I am beginning to realize I loathe convincing them as much and maybe more than they loathe being convinced.

Because people believe what they want to.

And they really really want to believe what they want to believe.

Sometimes they come up with the most outlandish arguments.

"I can't believe in a god who had to use the bathroom." ← One of the most outlandish arguments I've encountered.

There's no plumbing in hell.

I wonder how little the flames must matter to the eternal hell of knowing:

• hell is real
• hell is forever
• and all one had to do to avoid it was believe the truth

I don't presume if anyone is saved or not. So I am not impugning anyone. Just trying to warn and remind us all... 

...with so much at stake (heaven or hell) it behooves us all to be sure we are believing in the genuine Jesus Christ. And some version of Jesus that does not line up with scripture cannot, does not, will not save anyone. Galatians 1:8-9, 2 Corinthians 11:3-4.

The one who rejects biblical truth (from which the Trinity doctrine and others are derived) on some technical grounds or opinion must consider the fact they might not have the full biblical explanation in mind. 

Hebrews 10:5 (AV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world*, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

*The Greek here is "entering into the world..." establishing his preexistence meaning God the Word was not created when his human body was created by the Father.

Hebrews 1:5 (AV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Thou art my Son, THIS DAY have I begotten thee? And again, I WILL BE to him a Father, and he SHALL BE to me a Son?

This establishes that the eternal Son doctrine is false.

God the Word was not God the Son before the incarnation.

For that matter, God the Authority† was not God the Father before the incarnation of God the Word.

† "God the Authority" is a description I use for the first person of the Trinity before he became the Father of Jesus. I base it on the fact that he appears to have always been the ultimate authority in the Godhead.  I base this on Acts 1:7 and 1 Corinthians 2:10.

Reminding ourselves who Jesus is in Spirit: ______________________________________________________________________________________________

1 John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

John 1:1–3 (AV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14 (AV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the ONLY begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

What matters most and what every legitimate argument must begin from is:

2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy** of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1 John 4:1 (AV)
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Acts 17:11 (AV)
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

2 Timothy 3:16–17 (AV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

**This is a citation of a portion of scripture with the meaning that the smallest detail of the entirety of scripture is not up for any interpretation other than that of the author the Holy Spirit. This is based on the fact that verse 21 describes the prophetic way that ALL scripture came into being.

[JohnD]

9 minutes ago, JohnD said:

that eternal life, which was with the Father

God alone is eternal:

Forever existing with no beginning and no end.

We and angels may live forever, but we had a beginning.

Jesus (in his Spirit) had no beginning. Only his flesh had a beginning.

[other one]

because Jesus is Jesus no matter which form he takes.....

[brakelite]

@JohnD You speak a great deal about believing scripture, and along the way intimating a stubborness in others because they see things differently,even a reluctance on your part to bother with them. I find that incredibly arrogant. 

I believe scripture. In fact it is because  I believe scripture that I reject the current formula that defines the Godhead. For goodness sake, you said yourself that the Father is the source of authority in the Godhead,and I agree, and so did Jesus...see John 17:3. So where is the perfect equality there? 

As to the begotten concept. The best known scripture in the Bible is John 3:16 yes? I believe that text. In fact, because God is telling me that He sent His only begotten Son to die for me, I believe He had a Son to send. Not created, as were the angels, not adopted as are we, but begotten in the 'express image of His person'. And when I read Hebrews 1:2, I understand that it was by His Son that God made the worlds. I believe therefore that God had a Son pre-incarnation who created all things...the very same Son who declared concerningHis Father, "a body hast thou prepared for Me".

 

[JohnD]

38 minutes ago, brakelite said:

@JohnD You speak a great deal about believing scripture, and along the way intimating a stubborness in others because they see things differently,even a reluctance on your part to bother with them. I find that incredibly arrogant. 

I believe scripture. In fact it is because  I believe scripture that I reject the current formula that defines the Godhead. For goodness sake, you said yourself that the Father is the source of authority in the Godhead,and I agree, and so did Jesus...see John 17:3. So where is the perfect equality there? 

As to the begotten concept. The best known scripture in the Bible is John 3:16 yes? I believe that text. In fact, because God is telling me that He sent His only begotten Son to die for me, I believe He had a Son to send. Not created, as were the angels, not adopted as are we, but begotten in the 'express image of His person'. And when I read Hebrews 1:2, I understand that it was by His Son that God made the worlds. I believe therefore that God had a Son pre-incarnation who created all things...the very same Son who declared concerningHis Father, "a body hast thou prepared for Me".

 

You see, this sort of thing is what I loathe about interactive apologetics.

Rather than considering the biblical evidence, it's off to some "well I don't like the way you said it " tare.

You say you believe scripture and then proceed to prove you believe what you want despite the scriptures indicate to the contrary (that I showed you).

We all have to bow to the Holy Spirit interpretation of scripture. All of us. Or we believe untruth. It's just that simple.

Again...

2 Peter 1:20-21

1 John 4:1

Acts 17:11

2 Timothy 3:16-17

Deuteronomy 12:32 (AV)
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Proverbs 30:5–6 (AV)
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Revelation 22:18–19 (AV)
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Deuteronomy 29:29 (AV)
29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Proverbs 25:2 (AV)
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Why not be a king?

[JohnD]

2 minutes ago, JohnD said:

And when I read Hebrews 1:2, I understand that it was by His Son that God made the worlds. I believe therefore that God had a Son pre-incarnation who created all things.

Classic case of isolating scripture text to support an unbiblical belief.

Hebrews 1:1–3 (AV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The text is clearly summary. And cannot be taken out of the context of the over all scripture or even just the book of Hebrews which as I clearly showed indicates there was a time when Father and Son were not Father (Hebrews 1:5) and Son and that it has to do with the incarnation (Hebrews 10:5)

 

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

Hebrews 10:5 (AV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world*, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

*The Greek here is "entering into the world..." establishing his preexistence meaning God the Word was not created when his human body was created by the Father.

Hebrews 1:5 (AV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Thou art my Son, THIS DAY have I begotten thee? And again, I WILL BE to him a Father, and he SHALL BE to me a Son?

This establishes that the eternal Son doctrine is false.

God the Word was not God the Son before the incarnation.

For that matter, God the Authority was not God the Father before the incarnation of God the Word.