The Message

[ManApart]

To be a follower of Christ...there is a reason there are no true images of Jesus. Too many people even today, become to obsessed with the imagery of the image of Christ and fail to learn his Nature. His Nature is the only way we can become truly intimate and personal with Christ. That comes with prayer, meditation, contemplation, and most of studying who Jesus really was. Removing the contortions and manipulations of scripture. One has to know how he walked, thought, taught, spoke, etc...and to know it thoroughly, one has to understand the Jewish culture, traditions and customs. Get to know Jesus personally.

That's not true.

For one to truly and thoroughly know who Jesus Christ was, and is, having an understanding of the cultural is essential.

Is it needed for ones Salvation? Probably not, but who can say when one allows Jesus into their hearts.

You are shackling people with a burden that isn't necessary. You're also adding something to the Word. You say it probably isn't salvation related but then go on to say that maybe it is.

When you say things like this you are condemning countless multitudes of people. Because I know nothing about jewish culture, you're saying I don't know Christ. I don't believe it's your place to make that call.

Brother, Ido not question or make any statement on your salvation. I have no place to say anything. Your walk is your walk. What I said is getting to know Jesus in a "more" personal and intimate relationship. I am sorry you are confused at what I say.

May grace and peace be with you...

[~candice~]

Jesus also considered the flood a real literal event, with literal 'character' Noah.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels of Heaven, but only My Father.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark.

Mat 24:39 And they did not know until the flood came and took them all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of Man.

I truly do worry for the view you have of Christ, if your understanding of the inerrancy, inspiration and infalliability of the bible implies Jesus was wrong.

The flood , or deluge, epic is common around the world. A universal story. Over 200 srories, 50% older then the Hebrew account and 70% of those include the same details. Just different characters for the culture retelling the story. Noah was the Hebrew characte for the Hebrew realtion to the worldwide deluge story. but, once again I quess I am wrong, along with the rest of the world. Look up epics like the Epic of Gilgamesh, it had a strong influence on the Hebrew version of the deluge.

My view of Christ is very intimate. I know where I stand. I do honestly worry for the rest of the majority who think they actually know the facts, and preach and argue of details they do not know.

May grace and peace be with you.

I have never questioned your position with Christ, not ever . I don't think it is doubted at all. I simply believe you are wrong on your position of the bible, and that the way Christ read it and used it demonstrates this error. Just as you think I am wrong and proof via flood epics prove it.

I do find it a little odd though that you are appealing to proof by oldest account. I don't think that is sufficient proof for me .

[ManApart]

Man - what then do you say about the manner in which Jesus Himself read and understood the bible and it's inerrancy?

Jesus spoke of Adam as a literal person. He quoted passages from the OT as if they were literal and true. Was Jesus wrong, or just going along with the current understanding of the time?

I think it would be quite easy to make a case that Jesus' interpretation of the bible (at that time, the OT) should inform our interpretation of the bible and thoughts about inerrancy and inspiration. If the Son of God reads it, cherishes it, quotes it and teaches from it as if it were literal, what liberty do we have to read it any other way?

God bless

It seems every time I try and explain things, that I was under the impression those in here knew, I am constantly told I am wrong, and I should check my heart. I am very aware of what I know, what I have studied, and who i have studied under.

What I will do to answer the question you ask, and refer you to what to research. Midrash, a Jewish style of teaching. Look it up. There is one member who says he is Jewish, a am guessing a Messianic Jew. Having Hebrew roots and knowledge, he should be very familiar with midrash and how it is reflected in scripture. Midrash designates the use of sacred scripture; an interpretation. Midrash was not for interpretation of the literal sense,, but it was used for seeking the maximum of edifying lessons. The goal is a practical application to modern times.

Scripture can be retold, not in the historical sense, but in a manner to achieve edification. There is the "halakhah" and the "haggadah"; one for narrative teaching and the other a walking conduct type of teaching. Midrash is necessary in that it is personalizing the scriptures, and that it is an imaginative reconstruction of the inspired scripture. Literal sense, as historical facts and origins, is pushed aside, in order to extract the lesson; a principle, moral, or message. A true sympathetic understanding of midrash is essential in understanding Judaism and Christianity. To understand something in the Bible, one must know and understand how the intellectual and religious environment, and how they came to their own understanding. How they conveyed the lessons. Midrash was their way of taking sacred scripture, and making it applicable to their time.

As the culture grew and society changes, so do traditions and regulations. Anew society uses midrash to draw out the lessons, principles, and morals in the scripture, and midrash had it's part in the development of the early church.

Jesus used midrash as well as the rest of the teachers, priests, and scribes. It was very common in the Second Temple era. But, I am sure that I will be told I am wrong or something. I studied the culture that wrote the scriptures, and I believe that they know their writings better than those that teach Mainstream Christianity full of anti-semitism.

I pray I am not coming across rude, but I have been attacked since the first comment I gave. I was then accused of putting others down first. It's okay though, it is the norm I have seen my whole life in the church.

May grace and peace be with you.

I see no attack from anyone. Please quote where someone asked you to check your heart?

I asked how your view of scripture lines up with how Jesus handled it. And that hasn't been answered. Nothing more or less.

4given1, on 13 June 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:

Perhaps you should check your heart and see how much it lines up with your knowledge and even more, with the heart of God. A great many people know of Him without actually knowing Him. I trust, considering the confidence with which you write, that you are not one to be categorized as such.

I line up the scripture by the standard of the Divine Nature. I studied Jesus toroughly and intimatly. I learned how he walked, talked, everything I could. How he read, what festivals he observed, the customs and traditions of a jewish man with the highest reverance to the Torah. my paradigm of the Judeo -Christian scripture is based on the culture of the time and not the anti-semetism and anti-law view from Mainstream Christianity.

[~candice~]

OK, you quoted me when it was someone else who asked you to check your heart.... so I had no idea why you were assigning that to me when nothing I said was personal .

Anyway, back to the topic, I think you will find this place is very much Berean and not at all anti-semetic . The owner of this site lives in Israel as a pastor to a messianic congregation. In general, we love the Jews and have a great heart for them.

What I still don't understand is why a large number of flood epics, dated both before and after the Genesis account, imply that the Genesis account is mythology. How does that argument work?

[ManApart]

Something saddens me, and it is so common in Christianity. I was raised in the church and it seems that Christians, Mainstream Christians, only argue, point the finger, and put others down. I was told that this topic area had many minds that were very edified.

I came here to discuss and fellowship on what I thought was a mature level, not a religious soap box level. There were many aspects that I did not agree with when I got to seminary studies, but I realize my standard was how I was raised. Mainstream Christianity has not incorporated many truths, and those truths will not be found unless one goes past the limitations of Mainstream Christianity.

To be attacked and put down and told I am wrong when I know good and well I am right, allows me to move on. I do pray that those who have issues get through them. I pray that eyes and ears are opened. My prayers are with everyone and I am thankful to those who were polite and considerate, asking my views and sharing theirs.

Typical....the whole reason I detached from Mainstream Christianity and applied myself to Christ and Messianic Judaism. Go back to the origins and learn the original context for maximum edifying lessons. That is what I did, and am thankful for it, for I can see when others are not in line with God's message.

May grace and peace be with you all...

[ManApart]

OK, you quoted me when it was someone else who asked you to check your heart.... so I had no idea why you were assigning that to me when nothing I said was personal .

Anyway, back to the topic, I think you will find this place is very much Berean and not at all anti-semetic . The owner of this site lives in Israel as a pastor to a messianic congregation. In general, we love the Jews and have a great heart for them.

What I still don't understand is why a large number of flood epics, dated both before and after the Genesis account, imply that the Genesis account is mythology. How does that argument work?

Most think of Greek gods and such when they hear mythology. Myths are the oldest forms of story telling. Man describing an experience with nature or the divine, and doing it to the best of his ability with limited knowledge. A false hood portraying a truth.

And I am sorry about the quote, I did not mean to convey it was you.

Myths are just a form of expression. The flood or deluge was an event of worldwide size and was told in all civilizations. The Hebrews were behind on oral-to-written record compared to the other civilizations around them. You take a story, and make it your own. No problem. A myth used is stil la myth, just retold.

There is no argument, there is just the fact and truth of historical writings. Only ones that argue about it is usually those raised not knowing the background. Then when the issue arises and the basics of the backgrounds are mentioned, people go on the offensive. It's okay, normal, and expected. I did it too when I learned of certain things.

Take the Book of Jasher, mentioned in the Old Testament in Joshua 10:13, and 2 Sam. 1:18. It predates the Old Testament books. Try reading it if you can get ahold of it. See how man has changed the original oracles.....but wait, i am wrong, as those in here are quick to say to make themselves feel better.

That is why I have always found the truth on my own with the guidance of the Spirit; I have studied and went backwards to the origins. Not allowing the limitations and dogmatic teachings to keep me complacent or trapped in a box. The ultimate potential is within us, the heart, and I trust, believe, and have faith that my heart is in accordance with my God.

Grace and peace be with you...

[~candice~]

...Then when the issue arises and the basics of the backgrounds are mentioned, people go on the offensive. It's okay, normal, and expected. I did it too when I learned of certain things.

... See how man has changed the original oracles.....but wait, i am wrong, as those in here are quick to say to make themselves feel better.

No offense, but this ain't cool . You can't play the victim just because people do not believe as you do and ask for evidence. If someone has attacked you, quote it or report the post to a moderator. But we really need to get past the "everybody against me is attacking me" mentality in order to give the actual topic genuine consideration.

[Guest man]

...Then when the issue arises and the basics of the backgrounds are mentioned, people go on the offensive. It's okay, normal, and expected. I did it too when I learned of certain things.

... See how man has changed the original oracles.....but wait, i am wrong, as those in here are quick to say to make themselves feel better.

No offense, but this ain't cool . You can't play the victim just because people do not believe as you do and ask for evidence. If someone has attacked you, quote it or report the post to a moderator. But we really need to get past the "everybody against me is attacking me" mentality in order to give the actual topic genuine consideration.

[Guest shiloh357]

It seems every time I try and explain things, that I was under the impression those in here knew, I am constantly told I am wrong, and I should check my heart. I am very aware of what I know, what I have studied, and who i have studied under.

We are doing our doing our due diligence and we are challenging your views because you are saying things that are very unbiblical. You are parroting scholars, but you are not really holding true to Scripture and we are challenging your claims about characters not being real and so forth.

What I will do to answer the question you ask, and refer you to what to research. Midrash, a Jewish style of teaching. Look it up. There is one member who says he is Jewish, a am guessing a Messianic Jew. Having Hebrew roots and knowledge, he should be very familiar with midrash and how it is reflected in scripture. Midrash designates the use of sacred scripture; an interpretation. Midrash was not for interpretation of the literal sense,, but it was used for seeking the maximum of edifying lessons. The goal is a practical application to modern times.

The term Midrash means, to "search, investigate."

The Midrash is an extra-biblical commentary on Scripture. It uses biblical characters intentionally and places them in fictitious stories in order to bring out a spiritual lesson. That having been said, it does not in any way support your cliam that the characters (like Cain and Abel) of Scripture were fictiional personalities or were simiply made up to teach a lesson or whatever.

Scripture can be retold, not in the historical sense, but in a manner to achieve edification.

Uh, the Bible has an impeccible record when it comes to it's historical accuracy. The claims of Scripture are rooted in historical and geographic fact. It's converging lines of evidence are in a setting of real places, real events in history and real eyewitnesses whose existence we can historically verify.

There is the "halakhah" and the "haggadah"; one for narrative teaching and the other a walking conduct type of teaching.

Not exactly. Haggadah simply means "the telling." It is the telling of the story, such as the Exodus from Egypt every Passover. It is treated as an actual historical event. Halakah is a body of extra-bibllical instruction on how to keep the law, such as what elements to place on the Seder plate at Passover, how many candles to light on Shabbat and when to light them, how to perform the Kaddish, the proper blessings for different kinds of food, etc. You need to learn your Hebrew concepts a little better beofore thinking you can throw them around here.

Midrash is necessary in that it is personalizing the scriptures, and that it is an imaginative reconstruction of the inspired scripture.

That is complete nonsense. The Midrashim, such as the Midrash Rabbah does nothing of the sort.

Literal sense, as historical facts and origins, is pushed aside, in order to extract the lesson; a principle, moral, or message. A true sympathetic understanding of midrash is essential in understanding Judaism and Christianity.

This is again, nonsense. Midrash does not push aside history or facts or origins, or whatever. There are four levels of interpretation in Jewish theology:

P'shat - Literal

Remez - Hint/Allegory

Drash - Investigate/Search/Parabolic

Sod - Mystery/Deeper insight

You are using "midrash" like it means "allegory." That is incorrect. The allegorical method is in Remez. An example of a midrash in Scripture is in I Corinthians 10:4 when Paul references the rock the followed the children of Israel in the wilderness. The use of that midrash in no way fictionalizes the story or the characters.

To understand something in the Bible, one must know and understand how the intellectual and religious environment, and how they came to their own understanding. How they conveyed the lessons. Midrash was their way of taking sacred scripture, and making it applicable to their time.

You are waaaaaay oversimplifying this. There are over 30 different rules regarding interpretation. You cannot simply boil it all down to "midrash." If you were really schooled in what you are talking about, you would know that Rabbinic hermeneutics are extremely complicated and take years to understand, much less master.

As the culture grew and society changes, so do traditions and regulations. Anew society uses midrash to draw out the lessons, principles, and morals in the scripture, and midrash had it's part in the development of the early church.

Jesus used midrash as well as the rest of the teachers, priests, and scribes. It was very common in the Second Temple era. But, I am sure that I will be told I am wrong or something. I studied the culture that wrote the scriptures, and I believe that they know their writings better than those that teach Mainstream Christianity full of anti-semitism.

You are misapplying Midrash. Yes, Jesus used Midrash, but your core assertion is that the characters in Scripture are meant to be taken non literal and when asked for justification of that claim, you cite the Midrash. You are not as studied in this as you pass yourself off to be. You need to go back and get a better grasp on the concepts you are employing because you know just enough to be dangerous.

I pray I am not coming across rude, but I have been attacked since the first comment I gave. I was then accused of putting others down first. It's okay though, it is the norm I have seen my whole life in the church.

Well, on THIS board, we put claims like yours to the test. If that bothers you, if you don't want to challenged or questioned or corrected, go to another board.

[Guest shiloh357]

Something saddens me, and it is so common in Christianity. I was raised in the church and it seems that Christians, Mainstream Christians, only argue, point the finger, and put others down. I was told that this topic area had many minds that were very edified.

I came here to discuss and fellowship on what I thought was a mature level, not a religious soap box level. There were many aspects that I did not agree with when I got to seminary studies, but I realize my standard was how I was raised. Mainstream Christianity has not incorporated many truths, and those truths will not be found unless one goes past the limitations of Mainstream Christianity.

To be attacked and put down and told I am wrong when I know good and well I am right, allows me to move on. I do pray that those who have issues get through them. I pray that eyes and ears are opened. My prayers are with everyone and I am thankful to those who were polite and considerate, asking my views and sharing theirs.

Typical....the whole reason I detached from Mainstream Christianity and applied myself to Christ and Messianic Judaism. Go back to the origins and learn the original context for maximum edifying lessons. That is what I did, and am thankful for it, for I can see when others are not in line with God's message.

May grace and peace be with you all...

Yeah, so all of mainstream Christianity is wrong and you are the only one who can see the light??? You are wrong. You have made some very, very questionable claims and we have taken you to task. You are free to move on if you can't handle being challenged. But you will find that is the nature of the beast around here.