This is the importance Christ put on Mary

[seraph]

Biblically what we can't establish is:

* That she was perfect

But we can.

Just look at how God declares He'll create Mary sinless in Gen 3, 15.

If that doesn't do the trick, I dunno what will.

Genesis 3:15

And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

How is Genesis 3:15 declaring God will create Mary sinless?

Luke 1:46-47

And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord,

And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

Why would Mary need a Saviour if she was sinless?

[Botz]

Mary being sinless and being alive in body and soul belongs to Scripture, not Tradition

Hmmm...so Mary would have qualified to throw one.

John 8:7 But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.

Hmmm...but Mary is an exception.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Hmmm...Mary needed no redemptive sacrifice.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, each one to his own way; and Jehovah has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

I think both Called and Seraph have asked important questions.

I just wonder why o why Mary the lovely blessed mother of our L-rd Jesus has to be elevated to some god-like status (and sinlessness when applied to us human-beings is only conceivable if that person is YHVH ) in order to accord her the honour due to her role...especially when it transcends clear biblical exergesis and rises into the realm of historical Church fable.

It seems (and you will have to forgive me) that if Satan cannot make any mud stick to the person of Jesus...then he will try to manufacture a replica sinless persona to distract from the uniqueness of the L-rd G-d Almighty....and try to allot them a share in the Glory of the Father...and who better than the chosen vessel that was appointed to carry the Holy Child of G-d.

2Corinthians 5:21 For He has made Him who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh;

Rom 8:4 so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Far from elevating the blessed virgin Mary this doctrine of her sinlessness detracts from her true role and brings confusion and division amongst the Followers of the L-rd...which also suggests where the authorship of this doctrine really comes.

Above all it detracts from the great salvation our Messiah and King has accomplished for all who truely place their faith in Him.

There are times we need to contend for the faith.

[Yahsway]

Amen Botz

[apothanein kerdos]

Sorry I haven't responded, i completely forgot about this topic.

But we can.

Just look at how God declares He'll create Mary sinless in Gen 3, 15.

If that doesn't do the trick, I dunno what will.

You failed to give any interpretation as to exactly how Genesis 3:15 even remotely implies that Mary was sinless. What we see is that God declares to Eve that men (and eventually Christ) will suffer on account of her choice to eat the fruit, but that eventually the one from her seed (Jesus) will crush the head of the serpent (Satan). So I fail to see exactly how this even comes close to refering to Mary has being perfect.

We can.

Romans establishes a direct link between sin and death, so if She is sinless, she never died.

The problem with this is that it's a straw-man arguement.

"Mary was perfect, thus Mary did not sin, thus Mary did not die."

The problem with this is that is we cannot establish that Mary was sinless. You point to Genesis 3:15 but fail to even explain how this refers to Mary. I point you to Romans 3:23 which states that all (pas in the Greek) have sinned. Now, many Catholic Apologist will try and say that pas does not always literally mean all and/or if we take this to mean "all" then we must include Christ. However this fails and let me show you how.

While pas can be used to mean a certain group in certain uses, in Romans 3:23 the ending on it seems to indicate otherwise. When we read Romans 3:23 we find that instead of seeing pas we see pantes. The reason for this is that in most irregular adjectives in Greek the ending tes is used. This makes pas (pantes) a 3rd declension, nominative, masculine, plural adjective. The significance in this is that it's a plural adjective. If pas were only refering to a certain group of people (as Catholic apologist like to suggest) then it would be written out as pas and not pantes. This would make it singular instead of plural.

The significance in this is that everyone that has walked this earth has fallen short of the glory of God. At this point many Catholic Apologist attempt to say this is faulty because we do not include Jesus. The reason for this is that it would be faulty logic to include Jesus. For one, Jesus is listed as perfect through-out the New Testament. On the other hand, Mary is never mentioned as perfect, thus she falls into the Romans 3:23 category. The other reason we do not place Jesus into this category is that He is God thus He cannot fall short of Himself. The only way this can work for Mary is if we place her on par with God.

And of course, then there's Mary including her body in Rev 12, 1. Those who appear in Revelations all have bodies like Elijah, Enoch and of course Jesus. We find Mary there and She has a body so............

First off, where are Elijah and Enoch found in the revelation? As for Revelation 12:1, again, you fail to show how this is refering to Mary. In fact, it's not refering to Mary but to Israel. We look to verse 6 and see that a place is prepared for the woman and them. In fact, even in the Greek (and I won't get into the details this time), the word gune is used in its plural form the entire time. Thus woman in the Greek and even in context is plural, thus I fail to see how it is refering to Mary.

We absolutely can.

Can you name other son or daughter of Mary besides Jesus?.

Believe me....... I've asked that question to protestants over the years and none have find a single son or daughter of Mary other than Jesus (of course, those who don't know the Bible very well believe that His cousins were "His brothers" and they tend to confuse the other Mary with Mary the Mother of Jesus).

Congratulations, you've met your first protestant that can answer this.

First, appealing to the confusion of "brothers" and "cousins". The context of these verses doesn't allow it to mean "cousins". This is simply a myth that Catholic Apologist throw around and people eat up without realizing that context makes the word what it is. Take for instance Mark 6:2-3. When "brothers" is mentioned here, it uses the form of adelphai which is taken from adelphos. This is significant in that adelphos cannot and never does mean "cousin". It literally means brother by blood. The only exception is if it's refering to a fellow believer, of course this is easily dismissed when we see that no one could have been a fellow Believer at that time seeing as how Christ had not died yet. Likewise, if the writer's intent was to show that these were Jesus' cousins the writer would have used the Greek word suggenes. This comes from genos which is where we get our English word "genes" from. It refers to a kindred by blood or an offspring, easily translatable into cousin or brother or offspring, just something relating to relation. Thus, adelphai will always mean brother, whereas suggenes gives us the chance to loosely interpret it as brother or cousin. Unfortunately for many Catholic Apologist, suggenes is only used a relatively few times and none in refrence to Christ.

Secondly, even if you don't want to buy the Greek, here is a very compelling case. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25. What is interesting is that the entire passage of Psalm 69 is a prophetic passage. In verse 8 it states:

"I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mother

[Kabowd]

Mobile do you have a response to the above post?

[mobile21]

Biblically what we can't establish is:

* That she was perfect

But we can.

Just look at how God declares He'll create Mary sinless in Gen 3, 15.

If that doesn't do the trick, I dunno what will.

Genesis 3:15

And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

How is Genesis 3:15 declaring God will create Mary sinless?

Luke 1:46-47

"I will put enmity between you and the woman"

God happens to mention that because with original sin there's really no more enmity between Satan and humans, He has to artificially put it there (the enmity) for Mary, that is to create Her immaculate like Adam and Eve were.

Protestants tend to ignore the special intervention God talks about in Gen 3, 15 and for them, in reality that intervention equals to nothing at all (something that is absurd obviously, because you just cannot disregard God's Word).

And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord,

And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

Why would Mary need a Saviour if she was sinless?

A very frequent question.

It doesn't matter if you are an Immaculate human being like Adam and Eve were, you *still need* the Savior because He is the one to restore the relationship between mankind and The Lord, and only the Savior was the one that could open Heaven again for mankind (remember that before Jesus, all the good ppl including Abraham were stuck at the place called "Sheol", and they could only inherit the Kingdom after Jesus).

[apothanein kerdos]

I guess my post wasn't worth the time?

[mobile21]

I guess my post wasn't worth the time?

It's worth the time but I'm really tired right now so lemme sum it up:

1) I do not believe in Mary having other children because the Scripture only mentions one "Son of Mary" and that's Jesus. The other ones (Jesus' cousins) are sons of another Mary, not the same person. I will never believe in Jesus' "half-brothers" until someone shows me a biblical verse where it says: "Lisa, the daughter of Mary the Mother of Jesus" or "Bart, the son of Mary the Mother of Jesus". I'm sure that's not too much to ask because that's how the Holy Scriptures identify someone's son or daughter.

2) There have been 4 Immaculate Persons in history: Adam, Eve, Jesus and Mary.

3) There are 4 Persons currently alive in body and soul: Enoch, Elijah, Mary and Jesus and the 4 of them appear in Revelations precisely because of that same characteristic of having a body (Enoch & Elijah are the two witnesses).

[apothanein kerdos]

Oh wow....you ignored everything.

I do not believe in Mary having other children because the Scripture only mentions one "Son of Mary" and that's Jesus. The other ones (Jesus' cousins) are sons of another Mary, not the same person. I will never believe in Jesus' "half-brothers" until someone shows me a biblical verse where it says: "Lisa, the daughter of Mary the Mother of Jesus" or "Bart, the son of Mary the Mother of Jesus". I'm sure that's not too much to ask because that's how the Holy Scriptures identify someone's son or daughter.

First off, you won't find this because it wasn't the custom of the day to say, "Lisa, the daughter of Mary the Mother of Jesus". So you're never going to find it. Again, I point you to my post which I clearly lay out scriptural proof:

First, appealing to the confusion of "brothers" and "cousins". The context of these verses doesn't allow it to mean "cousins". This is simply a myth that Catholic Apologist throw around and people eat up without realizing that context makes the word what it is. Take for instance Mark 6:2-3. When "brothers" is mentioned here, it uses the form of adelphai which is taken from adelphos. This is significant in that adelphos cannot and never does mean "cousin". It literally means brother by blood. The only exception is if it's refering to a fellow believer, of course this is easily dismissed when we see that no one could have been a fellow Believer at that time seeing as how Christ had not died yet. Likewise, if the writer's intent was to show that these were Jesus' cousins the writer would have used the Greek word suggenes. This comes from genos which is where we get our English word "genes" from. It refers to a kindred by blood or an offspring, easily translatable into cousin or brother or offspring, just something relating to relation. Thus, adelphai will always mean brother, whereas suggenes gives us the chance to loosely interpret it as brother or cousin. Unfortunately for many Catholic Apologist, suggenes is only used a relatively few times and none in refrence to Christ.

Secondly, even if you don't want to buy the Greek, here is a very compelling case. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25. What is interesting is that the entire passage of Psalm 69 is a prophetic passage. In verse 8 it states:

"I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mother

[Guest Philip James]

The above gives excellent scriptural analysis on why Mary had other children. You say of "another Mary", but this contradicts what you taught before. If it's another Mary, then why is she called Jesus' mother? Why is it in Mark 6:3 Mary is listed as his mother and his brothers (adelphai) are listed as well. How can you justify this claim (btw, that's rhetorical, because there's no way you can)?

Hi SuperJew,

we can argue whether the term 'brother' was used by the Jews at the time to refer to any close blood relative if you want, but first, if you please, I would like you to answer a few questions so I understand you better..

If Jesus had other brothers, why did He comit the care of His mother to the disciple John when his other brothers would have had the duty to do so?

What does the term 'full of Grace' mean to you?

what does the 'ark of the covenant' in the old covenant forshadow in the new?

and who else does scripture name as a son (or daughter) of Mary?

Peace and Love!

PJ