The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

[OneLight]

I do not agree with your understanding. When God tells us It Is Done, He was speaking of His wrath on the world, the unbelievers. This includes all that is written in the Scroll that Jesus opened, the Seven Seals, the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Bowls.

The Seven Trumpets then begins. Yet, if we once again take your point of view, the Seventh Trumpet would have to include everything between the first mention of the Seventh Trumpet being sounded and the First Bowl being poured out. This is not how to study the end times. Each event stands on itself, has their own message and meaning.

I can appreciate your desire to understand what scripture says, but do you realize that God set up offices for a reason?

1 Corinthians 12:28

And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

If you cannot find a church, or a body of believers in your area to teach you, you really should check online courses. It will be well worth your time and you will see your errors. The problem when one sits all alone trying to learn what scripture says, without having others around, leads to misinterpretation of scripture. Look at how many here do not agree with what you are saying? I have not noticed one person who agrees. This alone should show you that you are off track.

In His Love,

Alan

Well, Alan, I believe what the Bible actually says. You have proven that you don't when you said the great tribulation ends at the 7th bowl. You have proven that you don't when you said the trumpets and bowls are part of the great tribulation. I have shown you what Jesus said about the great tribulation and you haven't even commented about that - you are ignoring Jesus' own words on the matter.

This is exactly what I was saying. You have taught yourself and you feel you are always right. Your statement "I have shown you" speaks loud and clear about you believing that you have all the answers, as many people have pointed out to you. You need to humble yourself and seek His truth through those whom He set up and stop being so proud, thinking you can be a lone ranger in all your learning. Many here have tried to correct you, but you refuse correction.

[goldust59]

Absolutely not! I believe that God knows who are His & that He can & will protect His children. There will be those that die for Him & I believe there will be a remnant brought through victorious.

But HE said HE removes us who have accepted Jesus' sacrifice prior to wrath. He doesn't say that he protects us through His wrath.

Do you believe HIM?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1Th 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hbr 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Yes, I believe Him, but I don't see the 1 Thess 4 scripture the same way you or most people do. So again, we are at a standstill. Don't feel like getting into that tonight, it's late here. You can find my thoughts on this in a couple old 'rapture' threads, if you care to look them up. Just go to my profile & click on 'find my content' & it will be faster.

[rollinTHUNDER]

This is an entirely different study but I'll tell you what I think the abomination of desolation was based on Scripture. I believe it was the Roman armies. Jesus said it was spoken of in Daniel. Keeping in mind that He was sent to Israel and was speaking to Israel, I believe we need to keep that in mind when thinking of the abomination of desolation and how it leaves Israel desolate until the time of the end (Daniel 9/Luke 21).

Luke 21 describes the abomination of desolation as armies.

Daniel 9 describes a "flood" (armies) destroying the Temple in war.

Jesus had a parable in Matt 22 about God sending His armies against Jerusalem because they rejected him.

Jesus warned Israel in Luke 19 about Israel's enemies hemming them in and killing them, leaving not one stone upon another, because they didn't recognize Jesus as Messiah.

Psalm 74 describes what the Roman armies did and how Israel was desolated ("for we know not how long")

Isaiah 47 describes the Roman empire and how God used them to desolate Israel.

I also think that Daniel 11:31-35 is speaking of the Romans because it says it occurs and makes them (israel) white "until the time of the end, for it is yet for a time appointed" although some disagree and say it refers to Epiphanes.

So you see the AoD as past. Now let me tell you why this can not be.

We see multiple abominations and desolations in Daniel 9. The last desolation of Jerusalem did come from the Roman armies and Jerusalem remained desolate until the 20th century. It was 1948 when Israel became a nation again, although Jerusalem was still in the hands of the Palistinians until the six day war in 1967. So that desolation has ended.

In Matthew 24 Christ talked about the desolation that was brought on by the Roman armies. Mark 13 and Luke 21 mention this as well. However, there is still another one mentioned as well that will come at the time of the end. We know this because Daniel 9 mentions multiple abominations and desolations, but Christ also mentioned a single abomination, that will come in the end.

So in Matthew 24, Christ talks about the final two desolations/tribulations. Now remember, Christ will come not just once, but twice. The first desolation/tribulation mentioned has already been fulfilled after Israel rejected Christ and God brought the Roman armies and made Jerusalem desolate. But now Israel is back in the promised land again and Christ is going to come again.

But the abomination of desolation that Jesus mentions in Matt. 24, and then points back to Daniel is not multiple in nature, but rather, this one is singular. So now we must move from Daniel 9 with the multiple abominations and desolations to Daniel 12. This is where we find the single abomination of desolation, the final one that will happen near the end of this age, before Christ returns again. There are some different things going on in this final desolation that did not happen when the Roman armies came in the 1st century.

In Daniel 12:1 we see a time of trouble that has not been seen since there was a nation, and Christ increases our knowledge about this in Matt. 24, calling it the great tribulation that has not been since the beginning of the world until that time, then He adds no, nor ever shall be. So this final tribulation will be much worse than the previous one with the Roman armies in the 1st century. We know this because God is going to bring (all) nations to this final battle, not just the Roman armies on horseback. But there's still one more glaring difference here, and this one is undeniable.

In Daniel 12:2, after that time of trouble or great triblation as Christ called it, Daniel sees the first resurrection or the resurrection of the just, when many will awake from the dust of the earth, all those whose names are written in the book. This did not happen in 70 AD, and Christ increased our knowledge of this as well, where He will send His angels to gather His elect (Matt. 24:31).

So no, the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Dan. 12:11/Matt. 24:15) was not fulfilled in the past. It's still in the future and we are commanded to be ready.

If you still disagree, then you must please tell me when the resurrection happened? If it has already happened, then so has the rapture, the second coming, the judgment of the nations, the millennial reign and the great white throne judgment as well. Where in history were all of these things recorded? Furthermore, if the abomination of desolation occurred when the Roman armies destroyed the Temple, then who was the son of perdition and/or the man of sin?

[Guest]

This Thing Between The Brotherhood

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15

And The KING

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:17

Is Love

He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love. Song Of Solomon 2:4

[OneLight]

I do not agree with your understanding. When God tells us It Is Done, He was speaking of His wrath on the world, the unbelievers. This includes all that is written in the Scroll that Jesus opened, the Seven Seals, the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Bowls.

The Seven Trumpets then begins. Yet, if we once again take your point of view, the Seventh Trumpet would have to include everything between the first mention of the Seventh Trumpet being sounded and the First Bowl being poured out. This is not how to study the end times. Each event stands on itself, has their own message and meaning.

I can appreciate your desire to understand what scripture says, but do you realize that God set up offices for a reason?

1 Corinthians 12:28

And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

If you cannot find a church, or a body of believers in your area to teach you, you really should check online courses. It will be well worth your time and you will see your errors. The problem when one sits all alone trying to learn what scripture says, without having others around, leads to misinterpretation of scripture. Look at how many here do not agree with what you are saying? I have not noticed one person who agrees. This alone should show you that you are off track.

In His Love,

Alan

Well, Alan, I believe what the Bible actually says. You have proven that you don't when you said the great tribulation ends at the 7th bowl. You have proven that you don't when you said the trumpets and bowls are part of the great tribulation. I have shown you what Jesus said about the great tribulation and you haven't even commented about that - you are ignoring Jesus' own words on the matter.

This is exactly what I was saying. You have taught yourself and you feel you are always right. Your statement "I have shown you" speaks loud and clear about you believing that you have all the answers, as many people have pointed out to you. You need to humble yourself and seek His truth through those whom He set up and stop being so proud, thinking you can be a lone ranger in all your learning. Many here have tried to correct you, but you refuse correction.

"I have shown you what Jesus said about the great tribulation" means that I quoted Jesus. Either you believe HIM and HIS words or you don't.

You, on the other hand, say that the great tribulation ends at the 7th bowl with NO SCRIPTURE to back you up.

So, I quoted what Jesus said about the great tribulation and you ignored it.

So, do you believe what Jesus said about the great tribulation or not?

Please stop with the accusations that people either believe the word of God or they don't when they speak with you on subjects, but disagree with your interpretation. Drop the attacks.

I did give you scriptural proof, you just don't agree with me on what it means when God said "It Is Done". Scripture does not go against itself, and when it appears to do so, it is not scripture that is wrong, but how we interpret it.

Matthew 24 and Revelation has to go hand in hand. Jesus never said when the Great Tribulation is complete, but Revelation does.

Matthew 24:29-31 tells us:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Revelation 16:17-21 tells us:

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

According to your interpretation of Matthew 24 and Mark 13, Christ will return after the Fourth Trumpet, which tells us in Revelation 8:12

[ Fourth Trumpet: The Heavens Struck ] Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

The problem with trying to make Matthew and Mark fit into Revelation 8 is that Christ does not return to Earth to reign until after the wrath of God is complete. We can see this in Revelation 19, starting at verse 11.

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Jesus only returns once and this is when it will happen, as written in Revelation 19.

To answer your question about believing the words of Jesus, Yes, I do. I also believe that He did not tell us everything that is to happen, as in step by step, but gave us an idea what to prepare for. One has to take into consideration all that is written about the coming events, not just what is written in one chapter, but His whole word. They fit together perfectly, and if there seems to be a "bump in the road", then it is us who are in the wrong.

[OneLight]

To answer your question about believing the words of Jesus, Yes, I do. I also believe that He did not tell us everything that is to happen, as in step by step, but gave us an idea what to prepare for. One has to take into consideration all that is written about the coming events, not just what is written in one chapter, but His whole word. They fit together perfectly, and if there seems to be a "bump in the road", then it is us who are in the wrong.

WOW, Alan you just went through a TON of scriptural calesthenics to arrive at an erroneous conclusion in order to protect your belief system.

Jesus was clear and it's very simple:

Matt 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

compare to:

Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

I can see that you are not fully reading or understanding my post, and are still on an attack mode to belittle me and shine a negative light on what I write. You, my dear sister, need to get off your high horse and sit at the table to discuss, removing your wall of superiority. If you can't do this, then we can't discuss.

[OneLight]

To answer your question about believing the words of Jesus, Yes, I do. I also believe that He did not tell us everything that is to happen, as in step by step, but gave us an idea what to prepare for. One has to take into consideration all that is written about the coming events, not just what is written in one chapter, but His whole word. They fit together perfectly, and if there seems to be a "bump in the road", then it is us who are in the wrong.

WOW, Alan you just went through a TON of scriptural calesthenics to arrive at an erroneous conclusion in order to protect your belief system.

Jesus was clear and it's very simple:

Matt 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

compare to:

Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

I can see that you are not fully reading or understanding my post, and are still on an attack mode to belittle me and shine a negative light on what I write. You, my dear sister, need to get off your high horse and sit at the table to discuss, removing your wall of superiority. If you can't do this, then we can't discuss.

Jesus was clear. YOU are the one who refuses to acknowledge it or discuss it.

Matt 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

compare to:

Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

If you can't see that these are the same moment in time, I don't know how to help you.

Yes, Jesus is clear and He has taught me well over 30 years. Yet, you remain to stand on the assumption that you are the only one with the correct answer, and if anyone disagrees with you , they disagree with Jesus. This, my sister, is not from the Spirit of Christ, but of the flesh.

[OneLight]

To answer your question about believing the words of Jesus, Yes, I do. I also believe that He did not tell us everything that is to happen, as in step by step, but gave us an idea what to prepare for. One has to take into consideration all that is written about the coming events, not just what is written in one chapter, but His whole word. They fit together perfectly, and if there seems to be a "bump in the road", then it is us who are in the wrong.

WOW, Alan you just went through a TON of scriptural calesthenics to arrive at an erroneous conclusion in order to protect your belief system.

Jesus was clear and it's very simple:

Matt 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

compare to:

Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

I can see that you are not fully reading or understanding my post, and are still on an attack mode to belittle me and shine a negative light on what I write. You, my dear sister, need to get off your high horse and sit at the table to discuss, removing your wall of superiority. If you can't do this, then we can't discuss.

Jesus was clear. YOU are the one who refuses to acknowledge it or discuss it.

Matt 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

compare to:

Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

If you can't see that these are the same moment in time, I don't know how to help you.

Yes, Jesus is clear and He has taught me well over 30 years. Yet, you remain to stand on the assumption that you are the only one with the correct answer, and if anyone disagrees with you , they disagree with Jesus. This, my sister, is not from the Spirit of Christ, but of the flesh.

All I'm doing is quoting Jesus, Alan.

You won't even discuss what Jesus said. Tell me, are Jesus' words speaking of the same moment in time in these two passages or are they different moments in time? The reason you won't answer the question is because you see that they are the exact same moment in time but it doesn't line up with what you believe.

Matt 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

compare to:

Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

You are doing far more then just quoting Jesus. You belittle people who disagree with you in a passive aggressive manner. This is not the spirit in which a discussion can be done in.

[OneLight]

Well, people can't answer that simple question because it proves their belief system to be incorrect.

Jesus is right - always!

Folks, Jesus told us everything. All we have to do is trust what He said.

Again, another attack. I was not at my computer, but picking up my wife from work.

I already posted what I believed which you attacked.

You should really polish your social skills and learn how to remain in a discussion without attacking people.

I thought you had considered what people had said to you about how to reply without accusing people, but I was wrong.

Good luck on the boards. I'm done with your perverse attitude.

[rollinTHUNDER]

why won't you answer the question?

Do these two passages of scripture, quoting Jesus, speak of the same moment in time?

Matt 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

compare to:

Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Okay, I'll answer your question. The answer is no, these two verses do not point to the same point in time.

As you can see, in Matt. 24:29 no moon is seen at all, because it is a new moon, which is exactly the way the moon would appear just before the feast of trumpets begins. A great possibility exists that this could be when the rapture is about to occur. As soon as the moon is sighted, the feast begins, and remember, the rapture takes place at the last trump.

But the moon seen in Rev. 6:12 is a blood moon. This is a total lunar eclipse, which makes the moon appear red. Here's a link to show what I mean: http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/watchtheskies/13oct_lunareclipse.html

So these are completely different times.