Omniscience

[Guest shiloh357]

This shows that God has infinite wisdom and can think intelligently to the nth degree. It also is consistent with Him knowing the past and present exhaustively. It does not prove or disprove the issue of exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies. There is not verse that says that God knows all of the future because it is not a logical statement in a non-deterministic universe.

I am suddenly reminded of Ecclesiastes 12:

12 ... Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body. 13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole [duty] of man. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

It is the glory of a king to search out a matter (Proverbs). There is merit to a right understanding of God and His ways and a hindrance in apologetics, evangelism, and our relationship with God to misunderstand Him and His ways. The area of providence has practical implications for the problem of evil, prayer, suffering, counselling, evangelism, etc. We should desire to know God and His Word accurately, even if it takes some work. Too many reject a wrong view of God and His Word or impugn His character and ways with bad theology (Calvinism, for e.g.).

Yeah, you presume that we reject your view based on Calvinism. There are many like myself, who are not Calvinists. I reject your erroneous position based on a hermeneutic treatment of Scripture for which you have demonstrated little, to no competence.

[Shiloh62]

Does God know what it is like to be female?

because he lives in you.....

OK - how about before the giving of the Spirit living in us?

Remember he has no time constraints..... he knew you 6,000 years ago... and I'll bet it made him smile Remember when he had finished creation and said that it was good. He knew you then.

This is incoherent and unnecessary. You did not exist 6000 years ago. If your parents never freely mated, you would not exist and be known. The Psalmist talks about present knowledge of God seeing the real you in the womb. Time has no constraints is an uncritically accepted assumption leading to wrong conclusions. Time is unidirectional, even for God. Jesus is not on the cross perpetually and creation precedes Second Coming, even for God. Every page of the Bible shows God's history, His Story, chronological dealing with men in real, unfolding space-time history. Timelessness is an unbiblical, philosophical error. Take it away, and our view of omniscience becomes more coherent, biblical.

Timelessness is not unbiblical. Time does not exist in Heaven. As humans, we don't understand timelessness,and its actually more difficult to understand omniscience without it, rather than easier. Imagine a place without time, like heaven. Everything that is to come God has already seen take place;thats how He knows what will happen, or at least its easier to understand how He knows.

[Guest shiloh357]

Crystal ball foreknowledge of the future is also not necessary nor desirous.

That is a grotesque oversimplification of foreknowledge.

If He foreknew the future, He could not change it or respond to believing prayer because it would be fixed/unchangeable (to change it would make His foreknowledge false).

Who says God ever changed the future???

Hezekiah and all Bible prayers show God responding in real space time AFTER the prayer with no hint of a need for prescience in order to answer it. I

So what??

I can make a chess move and win the game based on past/present knowledge. Future knowledge of all moves are not necessary if I am intelligent and responsive. Knowing future moves would be like cheating and make me less capable.

Actually, chess is played based on knowing the future moves of your opponent. Good chess players think 15 or more move ahead. The ability to be able to anticipate how your opponent will respond is an essential skill in chess. To act like you don't need that skill goes against everything they teach when it comes to learning the game.

[nebula]

I figured out how to express the main point I've been trying to make.

When one tries to figure out quantum physics and string theory and the like, one is left feeling overwhelmed and confused and fully aware that he is looking into something he has to accept on faith without being able to make sense of it.

When you try to figure out God, and such things as His omniscience, if you are not left with the same feeling, you are completely missing the boat, and what you think you know isn't right.

[Guest]

I figured out how to express the main point I've been trying to make.

When one tries to figure out quantum physics and string theory and the like, one is left feeling overwhelmed and confused and fully aware that he is looking into something he has to accept on faith without being able to make sense of it.

When you try to figure out God, and such things as His omniscience, if you are not left with the same feeling, you are completely missing the boat, and what you think you know isn't right.

Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Isaiah 6:5

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

[other one]

I figured out how to express the main point I've been trying to make.

When one tries to figure out quantum physics and string theory and the like, one is left feeling overwhelmed and confused and fully aware that he is looking into something he has to accept on faith without being able to make sense of it.

When you try to figure out God, and such things as His omniscience, if you are not left with the same feeling, you are completely missing the boat, and what you think you know isn't right.

Other than some of the mathmatics, what's the big deal with understanding string theory...... Stephen and I don't seem to have that much trouble with it, though he's much better with the math than I.

[Openly Curious]

Everything that is in the natural was in the spiritual first even you and I even were formed in the belly and GOD knew us spiritually before we ever came out of the womb as the prophet Jeremiah in.......

Jeremiah 1:4-7 Then the word of the Lord came unto me saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

The knowledge of God goes all the way back to his beginning and goes on into the future where his end is past finding out. Just as GOD has a beginning that goes beyond human understanding he also has an end that also goes beyond human understanding that goes on forever. According to the foreknowledge of GOD he gave man a beginning a time to be born and a time to die for it is appointed once for man to die. After death our never-ending future will begin for all eternity.

For those who claim that there is no future that is going to come to pass will have a rude awakening one day. For Jesus Christ was prophesied that he would come lo, and riding a donkey which is only one of the many that foretells of his birth. It is easier to believe a lie over the truth as it makes it more soothing to believe that over the truth. I'm reminded of the friends of Job who tried to convince him he sinned against and to repent and Job held to his integrity even though he was mocked by his friends. Job held onto his faith and never let go of it even though he didn't understand all that came upon him.

Job had a future as God restored to him double of all he had before.

God has given to us a future and a hope which was foretold about Jesus who would come born of a virgin and it was through him we could have our sins forgiven and have everlasting life. God has spoken to man through his word and showed them things to come like Joseph who had a dream where his brother's were going to bow before him and didn't like the thought of being humble before him. Joseph went through alot of things but God gave him favor and promoted him to the second most powerful in Egypt beside Pharoah and there came a time when his brother's had to come to buy food and they did bow before Joseph all of this was foretold to him and it came to pass in the future as the Lord had said it would.

The deliver was foretold was going to come and lead the people of God out of Egypt in which they had been made slaves and that deliverer was Moses whom God called and then sent him out to lead them out. This was the future that happened according to the will of God and to deny the future is no where close to the truth and it is to deny your own life that was in the mind of God before you were even formed in the belly and born in the womb. God had your own future in his mind before he even created you first you was in the past, now you are in the present and by faith like Abraham for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (that sounds like Revelation 21:1-27 for our future home shall be GREAT)

Hebrews 11:1-3 NOW FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were made of things which do appear.

Everything in the spiritual was before it was in the natural.

[godrulz]

Does God know what it is like to be female?

because he lives in you.....

OK - how about before the giving of the Spirit living in us?

Remember he has no time constraints..... he knew you 6,000 years ago... and I'll bet it made him smile Remember when he had finished creation and said that it was good. He knew you then.

This is incoherent and unnecessary. You did not exist 6000 years ago. If your parents never freely mated, you would not exist and be known. The Psalmist talks about present knowledge of God seeing the real you in the womb. Time has no constraints is an uncritically accepted assumption leading to wrong conclusions. Time is unidirectional, even for God. Jesus is not on the cross perpetually and creation precedes Second Coming, even for God. Every page of the Bible shows God's history, His Story, chronological dealing with men in real, unfolding space-time history. Timelessness is an unbiblical, philosophical error. Take it away, and our view of omniscience becomes more coherent, biblical.

Timelessness is not unbiblical. Time does not exist in Heaven. As humans, we don't understand timelessness,and its actually more difficult to understand omniscience without it, rather than easier. Imagine a place without time, like heaven. Everything that is to come God has already seen take place;thats how He knows what will happen, or at least its easier to understand how He knows.

The Book of Revelation relating to heaven and the eternal state does mention time in eternity (half hour of silence, years, days, etc.). Rev. 1:4 also uses tensed expressions about God. He has a history, His Story. Timelessness is a Platonic philosophical concept and is far more problematic than the endless time Hebraic concept.

[godrulz]

Crystal ball foreknowledge of the future is also not necessary nor desirous.

That is a grotesque oversimplification of foreknowledge.

If He foreknew the future, He could not change it or respond to believing prayer because it would be fixed/unchangeable (to change it would make His foreknowledge false).

Who says God ever changed the future???

Hezekiah and all Bible prayers show God responding in real space time AFTER the prayer with no hint of a need for prescience in order to answer it. I

So what??

I can make a chess move and win the game based on past/present knowledge. Future knowledge of all moves are not necessary if I am intelligent and responsive. Knowing future moves would be like cheating and make me less capable.

Actually, chess is played based on knowing the future moves of your opponent. Good chess players think 15 or more move ahead. The ability to be able to anticipate how your opponent will respond is an essential skill in chess. To act like you don't need that skill goes against everything they teach when it comes to learning the game.

I play chess. Future moves are anticipatory, not actual, contingent, not settled. The player's strategy does include planning and thinking ahead, but it is ultimately a response to each actual move out of 1000s of possible combinations. If a person makes a mistake on move 3, the person would not stick to the same plan of a different scenario. A person can move out of character or do so many other things. They do think ahead, but the unfolding reality will be responsive depending on what the opponent actually does. Winning depends on intelligence and responsiveness, not actually knowing 15 moves ahead (impossible; the only way to know what the actual moves were was after they have been played; anticipation is not actual/certain, but possible/probable).

God is responsive by His intelligence and ability. Since exhaustive foreknowledge would fix the future, it offers no providential advantage because God could not change it even if He wanted to (would make His FK wrong).

http://www.revivaltheology.net/9_openness/chess.html At least understand this correctly if you are going to reject it.

[godrulz]

I figured out how to express the main point I've been trying to make.

When one tries to figure out quantum physics and string theory and the like, one is left feeling overwhelmed and confused and fully aware that he is looking into something he has to accept on faith without being able to make sense of it.

When you try to figure out God, and such things as His omniscience, if you are not left with the same feeling, you are completely missing the boat, and what you think you know isn't right.

String theory is speculative and probably wrong. Quantum mechanics/chaos theory actually supports Open Theism vs determinism. I had the same problem when I tried to figure out eternal now, God knowing the future, time travel in sci-fi movies, etc. The problem was that it was incoherent, wrong, confusing. When I found a biblical, logical, coherent view, I could understand and had a eureka moment. The lights came on. I have tried to merge it with tradition, but this will not work, since one is correct and the other is not. I have tried to undermine my new view or try to prove the classic view, but I cannot since I am convinced that it is more true, less problematic than other views. Most people do not think critically about these things, so they just spout traditional statements without really being able to defend them (begging the question).

openlycurious: God knows reality as it is. The past does not actually exist, but is known perfectly in God's memory. The future does not actually exist, but is anticipatory. If an agent vs God settles the future (players play the future Superbowl), it cannot be an actual object of knowledge since the game does not exist until freely played in the present by actual people. God cannot just see the future when there is nothing there yet to see. The things that He intends to bring to pass or that He is able to predict are seen in His imagination, not in actuality like the present is. God expected good grapes from Israel, but was disappointed when they produced sour ones. He said creation was very good and knew of the possibility of the Fall, but was genuinely grieved when it happened because there was no good reason for it to happen. This genuine chronology in the heart and mind of God is dismissed as figurative, without warrant, to retain a preconceived, wrong view. Take it at face value and a more biblical, beautiful picture of an omnicompetent God emerges. It takes a greater God to bring His purposes to pass without controlling people like robots. Free will, love, relationship introduces self-imposed limitations on God, but for a higher good. He can mitigate all risk and contingency, but does not always get His way (some go to hell; evil abounds, etc.). He will triumph over evil and bring justice in the end, but it is a false Calvinistic view to assume that everything is God's will for a higher good. There is no good in a person raping and killing a baby. He allows it to happen, but does not desire or intend it. He could intervene, but He does not always. A paradigm shift is needed if we are to represent God as He has revealed Himself (timelessness cannot be defended from Scripture, but every page screams of God acting in succession, sequence, duration/time).