Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[larryt]

Strongs says"it specifically refers to miraculous gifts." So when you read that verse this is what it actually says. "Having a form of godliness, but denying the miraculous gifts thereof." I believe that is another description of Cessationist.

Where does it say it specifically refers to miracles Scudbuddy?

I've know people that say the miracle age is finished but they do not correspond with the description Paul gives them. Sounds more like the J.w's to me.

Power.

1. strength power, ability

a. inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth

b. power for performing miracles

c. moral power and excellence of soul

d. the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth

e. power and resources arising from numbers

f. power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/...411&version=kjv

Dunamis

1. to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom

2. to be able to do something

3. to be capable, strong and powerful

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/...410&version=kjv

I'll be honest with you Scudbuddy. I don't mean to be rude or anything but this is what I think at the moment. Your post did not change my mind, but I am not an expert in Strong's.

Strongs does not say "it specifically refers to miraculous gifts." does it? It's one of a choice. It is included but it is not alone.

The passage in question is not talking about gifts at all is it?

johnp.

johnp,

dunamus is translated miracle in these verses

Mr 9:39  But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

Ac 2:22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Ac 8:13  Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Ac 19:11  And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

1Co 12:10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1Co 12:28  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1Co 12:29  [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?

Ga 3:5  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Heb 2:4  God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

LT

[Guest idied2]

1 Corinthians 13

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

This scripture is simply saying that when CHRIST returns. Everything but love will be done away with. CHRIST is perfection.

Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

Not until our perfection "CHRIST" returns.

In CHRIST JESUS :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[Scudbuddy]

1 Corinthians 13

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

This scripture is simply saying that when CHRIST returns. Everything but love will be done away with. CHRIST is perfection.

Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

Not until our perfection "CHRIST" returns.

In CHRIST JESUS :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

You are so nice and yet you say it so well. And the hugs. I bet Neb likes you much better than me. I am bad. Real Bad. :down: :upsided:

[johnP]

Thanks LT. I shall look into it after church.

Scudbuddy.

I am bad. Real Bad.

Your are only being scriptural.

johnp.

[Guest idied2]

You are so nice and yet you say it so well. And the hugs. I bet Neb likes you much better than me. I am bad. Real Bad

OK Scudbuddy I give up. What are you talking about?

In CHRIST JESUS :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Waz up people!

Hey Scudbuddy,

The idea that demons can no longer possess people, or that there is no demonic activity is prepostorous to the average Third World Christian

I found the above quote very interesting being that I was brought up in a third word country. And I as well as my church over there did not believe in the Gifts of the HS.

Furthermore, the fact that the third world believes in gifts does not mean that they are right. Where I came from, Africa, they also believed that having sex with a white baby would cure you from aids. This was a very common thought among the black society there. However just because they believe it does not make it right. They also have a lot of other strange ideas and believe in a lot of strange things, all due to their ignorance.

I love to hear all your experiences of what you have seen and heard but it does not work for me. I myself have heard and seem people proving so many fakes. For example. A friend of mine went into a church that believed in the speaking in tongues and he spoke in Swahili (an African language) to the whole church. He then waited, as he did another man stood up and interpreted what my friend had supposedly said. He was wrong. In fact he was not even close to what had actually been said.

I have also head from a friend that set up a test for the healing side of the gifts. (I believe it was even captured on video) He got a group of well known healers from many different churches and then got a large group of people that had a variety of diseases and illnesses. He then got a group of qualified Doctors and had them test these people independently before and after the healing session. Some people would show a mild healing, (eg from not being able to walk without a walking stick, to being able to hobble without a walking stick) but not total, but the rest showed no healing what so ever. The excuse then given by the healers was that they did not have enough faith. The thing is that there where even children amongst these people that where ill. How can you say a child does not have faith when it can barley even speak.

We believe as one brother put it that the perfect is what happens when we meet Jesus in the air

.

The perfect is not when we meet Jesus in the air as we would not need hope or faith at that point in time. As mentioned in vs 13

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

How are ya Botz,

Hope your sides aren

Edited September 26, 2004 by Nebuchadnezza10

[Scudbuddy]

Neb,

Your viewpoint comes from either seeing the fake, or hearing about it. Neither verifys your view. The counterfeit is always a copy of the real.

Here is what I have seen that has been documented by doctors.

The dead raised. 45 minutes dead. Pronounced dead by the ER team. (This happened in America. When it happened it startled everybody. No brain damage either.)

A woman whose ear drum and ear canal had been surgically removed. The doctors shook when they examined her because both her ear drum and ear canal had grown back like brand new. Their words were "This is impossible. It is like growing your leg back after amputation!"

The ambassador of Australia to Ecuador had only one kidney which was infected. God not only healed this badly infected kidney instantaneously, but then did a creative miracle and gave the Ambassador his second kidney back.

A woman in one of my meetings who had severe scoliosis instantaneously healed. I had the team with me put their hand up the slot where the curvature was. When we asked God to heal her, you could hear the bones snapping into place. She was made whole, and when she went to the doctors, their response was amazement. There is no cure for this disease. It only gets worse. Not better.

A woman in Costa Rica with a horrible jaw problem, with crooked teeth that were badly rotted instantaneously healed. Teeth straightened, and teeth made whole. The strange part was when I prayed for her, her lower jaw bone moved to the side back and forth like chattering teeth, only sideways. When I said "Paz" she was instantaneously healed.

A cook at a christian camp in my area had her arm caught in an industrial blender. Her bones were all splintered and broken. Many bones going in all directions. When she came back from the hospital with her arm in a cast, and in pain, some of the pastors at the conference at her camp prayed for her. Instantaneously healed. Nothing wrong with her arm. This is all documented. In fact my friend is writing a book with alot more stories just like these for his denomination which is a Cessationist denomination to hopefully persuade them that God is still God.

I have so many stories like this. These healings took place when believers who prayed in Jesus name for healing prayed for these individuals. The raising of the dead took place here in America with American technicians as the witnesses. I am the man who knelt down and prayed for this woman, and I did so only after being told that she was dead, and that there was nothing that could be done for her. I was the Training officer for Security at this huge company where this took place.

I only wrote the stories that were the most documented, but have more whenever you want to say that these things are fake. Remember, the fake prove the reality. The word miracle exist because they have happened. And as an evangelist I have seen the superstition that rules Third World countries. It is no different than the scientific superstitions that God is a has been, or even worse, a no-show. Superstitions come in logical empirical packages too. They are just camaflauged in Science, Philosophy and Logical reason. Too God and His reality, these things are all myths.

In the meantime, the bible refutes your view so much, that even the Cessationist have a hard time with some of it. The demonic is a biblical description of entities that are evil and are in war with the saints. This a Christian view, and if this is not so, then the rest of the bible is not so. The apostles are liars, Jesus who warned us of the wicked one is a liar, and Paul who in II Cor. 10:3-5 describing our fight as being with demonic principalities is a liar. There is no reason to trust a word of the bible if there are no such things. Your Empirical worldview has robbed you of truth. And I cannot think of one Evangelical denomination that agrees with you what so ever even amongst the Cessationist. Only the groups that also deny the essentials of the gospel and the infallibility of Gods word. These doctrines are the demarcation line for seperating Christians from false believers. I John 4 tells us to "Test the Spirits to see if they are from God."

This is a non-negotiable argument with Christians who believe Gods word. It is just the way it is.

[irishcowboy]

there are fakes, there are those that get so wound up that they start speaking a language they already know so that they can look like they are more spiritual, that is a fake.........

Translating what was said and interpreting what was said are two different things....

a translation or translating the tongue spoken can be done by anyone that has trained in that language........ interpreting is not a word for word translation,

for instance...... you and me and maybe others with us see a small group of people coming down the street, we are to discribe them...... one might say they are a small group of businessmen, the other might say a here comes a gang, a third person involved might say they belong to this club over here, and even another might say something about them being life long friends.... are any of them incorrect? no, they are infact all correct...... it may even sound a bit conflicting, but they would all be looking at the same event and seeing it from their own perspective.....

I would venture to say, that I could give out 100 camera's to 100 people and each person was to take a picture of pikes peak, and each person was to take several pictures from set places and there would be no two pictures that were exactly alike,

that is how an interpretation works.....

I have received the interpretation of a message in tongues, and was a bit hesitant to give it, when some one else started interpreting it, and the message was the same as what I had received, it was worded a bit different but was the same message......

If a person hears a message in tongues, and knows the interpretation is incorrect, they are suppose to, should, speak the true interpretation....

now......

when a message is given, judge the message.... does it line up with the Word of God??? entirely???? if not, throw it out.......

if a person is praying in their prayer language, it is not ment for interpretation...

and if some one is trying to interpret it, it wont work.... and people will try to make up what they thing it should be..... DONT..... IF IT IS NOT FROM GOD, DONT MAKE UP AN INTERPRETAION....... LET THE SPIRIT DO THE WORK......

too many people are caught up in the thrill of it and do put on a show.....

too many people are also trying to teach some oneto speak in tongues

Ok now, repeat after me.....CEMITY ( SEE MY TIE ) keep saying it, faster and faster and wow, now your speaking in tongues......

that is a bunch of hogwash....... The Spirit will give you the words to say when it is time for you to speak...... dont try to get ahead of the Spirit of God......

also dont try to give satan credit where the Spirit is working..... if it is of the Spirit of God, and you are giving credit to satan...... dont want to do that..... dont want to go there.... that is bad bad bad.... giving satan the credit for the Spirit's work....

if I wanted to put on a show, I could start speaking different tongues a few words here and there, from Korean, Mandarin, Finnish, Icelandic, German, Spanish, Philipino...... and that might look good on the outside, but would be totally fake..... there are some that is what they do......

dont say that speaking in tongues is of satan.... oh no..... that is not a good thing....

dont say that interpretation of tongues is of satan.....on no, that is not a good thing either.....

dont say that prophecy is of satan.... that is not a good thing....

neither is saying that healing is of satan.... or working of other miricles.... or discernment of spirits or the others are of satan....... dont do that.......

The Bible is the final authority on the Word of God....... and it is true... unchanging.... the Gifts of the Spirit are there, the Spirit deceides when and who will receive them, and the Spirit of God is the one that controls them.........not satan.......

satan can try and fake his waythru, but with out the gift of Discernment you will never know if it is of satan or not, and well, that is one of the greater gifts, where tongues would be one of the lesser gifts.... said to be the initial gift received when filled with the Holy Spirit.... documented many many many times in the Bible, that those that were converted, that they spoke in tongues, some before they was baptised and others during and others after, but it was the first to show up......

funny how some can have the "Discernment of Spirits" and believe that is the only gift working, or may be some will believe that healing is the only gift working.... and all the others are from satan......... GIVE ME A BREAK, THEY ARE ALL FROM THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY..... THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVES THEM ALL TO WHOM HE DESIRES..... READ THE BIBLE......

if they were not in operation.... then why do we continue praying????? why do we continue to have hope that some one might be healed? why are we asking God to heal some one if we do not believe the entire group of Gifts are in operation?

if they were not in operation, how can a person have the Gift of Discernment???

think about it.....

[larryt]

Ralph Anderson of LA, Calif. area was born with birth defects caused by german measles, and his mother was told he wouldn't survive a week, he was retarded mentally, developed degenerative eye disease, and had cerebral palsey. She prayed for him. He lived to 26 and died because of the problems in his heart - german measles. 36 hrs after he dies he is found alive on the morgue table and now tell how Jesus asked him to return. I met him when he was 45 in NYC. He is no longer retarded in his mental capacity yet his speach is that of a person so incapacitated. He does not need his full body brace and wheel chair, he is as subtle in movement as anyone I have seen. He has full vision even though all his eye parts have not grown back. The doctors don't know how this can be. These healing happened susequent to his coming back to life. He attributed them all to "My Jesus healed me." All this is medically documented.

LT

[Scudbuddy]

Ralph Anderson of LA, Calif. area was born with birth defects caused by german measles, and his mother was told he wouldn't survive a week, he was retarded mentally, developed degenerative eye disease, and had cerebral palsey. She prayed for him. He lived to 26 and died because of the problems in his heart - german measles. 36 hrs after he dies he is found alive on the morgue table and now tell how Jesus asked him to return. I met him when he was 45 in NYC. He is no longer retarded in his mental capacity yet his speach is that of a person so incapacitated. He does not need his full body brace and wheel chair, he is as subtle in movement as anyone I have seen. He has full vision even though all his eye parts have not grown back. The doctors don't know how this can be. These healing happened susequent to his coming back to life. He attributed them all to "My Jesus healed me." All this is medically documented.

LT

We have a man with a similar story living in Fresno. A Down Syndrome baby who had multiple problems because of it. A couple of them were killing him. Went to a Kathyrn Kuhlman meeting, and was healed. Here is the thing about it. This man who was totally mentally retarded has normal function of his mind now. But he still looks like he is Down Syndrome. When he gives his testimony, before he speaks, you will say to yourself "They are going to allow someone who is retarded speak?" After he speaks you will have to go up to him and talk to him, to see him up close. And you find yourself amazed at Gods goodness and power. One thing that does not go through your mind is that the gifts ceased after the apostles.

All of this is documented, but only an idiot would doubt it looking at this man.