How much influence does the Pope have

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear ServingHim,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

I can't ever understand how anyone could 'degrade' another and 'exalt themselves' when it comes to Christianity...and I see a lot of that here on this board...

I think I understand why others 'degrade' other beliefs. It is precisely to 'exalt' their own belief by comparison. We must understand that everyone believes themselves to have the correct belief/interpretation (otherwise they wouldn't believe in it). And since some held beliefs are directly contradictory to others, those other beliefs must a priori be 'wrong.' What I have said above refers to the internal workings of the mind. This is not outwardly disgusting. However, what behaviour manifests from this thinking could be disgusting.

If this sort of thinking isn't mitigated by a sense of tolerance and respect for other beliefs, the outward behaviour becomes authoritative, authoritarian, and downright obnoxious. From my non-christian perspective, I often experience this sort of behaviour, as you can imagine. What does help me understand and forgive the people who perpetrate this behaviour on me, is that they lack the maturity to control these base impulses. I hope you too can accept this perspective and forgive as I have.

Best regards,

UndecidedFrog

Edited September 19, 2004 by UndecidedFrog

[Guest Liv4Him2]

Tess,

If you don't venerate her as you would a member of the Godhead, why do you pray to her? Can you show me anywhere in Scripture that we are taught that we should pray to her, or any other person who is not part of the Trinity? As I was taught, the Scripture states that there is one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ. (I Tim. 2:5; Heb. 8:6; 12:24). Respecting and honoring does not necessitate praying to someone. I respect and honor my parents, but I do not pray to them.

But do Catholics really pray to Mary or is there something others do not understand? I would be willing to bet they do not even examine the prayers we use to 'petition' Mary. Have you ever heard of the word 'intercession'? It is when we ask someone to pray for us. Lets look at a few Bible verses...

Rom 15:30, "...help me by your prayers to GOD for me."

Col 1:9, "This is why we too have been praying for you unceasingly."

1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more..."

2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you."

2Thes 3:1, "In conclusion brethren, pray for us..."

Jam 5:16, "...and pray for one another that you may be saved."

Rev 8:3-4 "...that he may offer it with the prayers of all the saints..."

The Bible is asking you to pray for one another. Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Have you ever told someone you will pray for them? Why then, when the name of Mary is introduced, is it not to be asked of her? Was she not a created being like all the rest of us? Why can we ask everyone else to pray for us, but we can't ask it of Mary?

Have you ever listened to the words of the most used Marian prayer of all, the Hail Mary?

*** "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee." ***

This is nothing more than the salutation of Gabriel in Luke 1:28.

*** "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)." ***

That is Elizabeth's greeting to Mary in Lk 1:42.

***"Holy Mary, mother of GOD." ***

She is a saint which makes her holy, and she is the Mother of GOD, because Elizabeth calls her the 'Mother of Our Lord' in Lk 1:43. Also if you take Jn 1:1 "...and the Word was GOD', and add it to Jn 1:14, "...and the Word was made flesh", GOD was made flesh, and who was His mother? Mary!

*** "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen." ***

This is nothing more than petitioning Mary to PRAY FOR US, just like in the Bible verses I presented. Do we 'pray to' Mary, or are we only petitioning her to pray for us?

Many non-Catholics have the false belief that praying to "dead" people is useless. This is a mis-interpretation of what Holy Scripture teaches us, for the Blessed Virgin Mary and others who have gone on before us are not dead but live forever.

If you look up the word 'Blessed' in the dictionary, it means, 'Holy', held in 'Veneration', 'Revered'. GOD is telling us that Mary is Holy, and she should be venerated and revered. How can any person refuse to abide by this specific command in Luke 1:48 and still claim they follow the Bible?

I'm curious why Mary's motherhood is significant. Sure, her womb was inhabited by the Savior but I find it more significant that following the Savior's fulfillment of His purpose,

Is Mary the Mother of GOD?

A. The definition of 'PERSON' is, 'The center of attribution in a rational nature'. For a person the question is 'WHO'. Who is that person?

1. Each person has a body. Messages come to the body through the five senses.

2. Each person has a soul, the principal of life.

3. Each person has a spirit. It has the intellect and free will.

B. The definition of 'NATURE' is, 'That which makes a thing be what it is'. A dog has a dog nature, a fish has a fish nature. A dog cannot 'meow' because it doesn't have a cat nature. Everything has its own nature. A person possesses a nature. Nature does not possess a person. I cannot move your arm because my person does not possess your nature. For a nature the question is 'WHAT'. What kind of nature, human, fish, cat, dog?

C. Jesus Christ was (is) a person, as you are a person, and I am a person.

D. Jesus Christ has two natures, a divine nature and a human nature. He is unique in being the only person ever born with two distinct natures.

E. He can do everything that GOD can do, and at the same time do everything that a man can do except sin.

F. As GOD, He knew everything. As man, He had to learn everything, as you and I have to do. Lk 2:52

G. His foster father, St Joseph, taught the creator of the universe how to be a carpenter. Mk 6:3

H. It is a mystery as to how these two natures co-existed in His one person. It is known as the 'Hypostatic Union'.

I. Jesus Christ is but one person, with two natures.

J. He is not two persons, each with His own nature.

K. A son receives his nature from his father, male, human etc.

L. Jesus Christ received His nature from His father, a divine nature.

M. Since Jesus Christ is His Fathers Son, He is a divine person. He cannot be a human person also, as that would make Him two persons, each with a nature.

N. A woman gives birth to a 'PERSON' and that person possesses a nature, male, female etc. She does not give birth to a nature.

O. Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, a 'DIVINE PERSON'.

P. Since Mary gave birth to a divine person, that makes her the Mother of GOD.

What did GOD say through Gabriel in Luke 1:30-33? "You have found favor with GOD." Right there, GOD 'venerated' Mary over all other women. In verse 31 He tells her that she will conceive. Who will she conceive? None other than Jesus Christ, the second person of the Holy Trinity, who will manifest Himself as the 'Incarnate Word'. GOD Himself needed Mary to conceive His very own Son, and to carry Him for nine months to term. GOD needed Mary to be the vessel to give birth to His Divine Son.

Name another woman who conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit? Luke 1:35-38

Name another mother who carried the Divine Person of GOD in her womb for nine months?

Name another mother, whose child she carried, was the cause of a child in another mothers womb to leap for joy? Luke 1:44

Name another mother who gave birth to a person with two natures, one human and one divine?

Name another mother from whom Jesus Christ received all of His genes?

Name another mother from whom Jesus Christ received His flesh, blood, and bone? He is bone of her bone and flesh of her flesh.

Name another mother from whom He received His eyes with which to see, His ears with which to hear, and His mouth with which to speak to us?

Name another mother who gave us our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ? Without her we would have no Savior and no Gospel, just as without your mother there would be no you reading this now.

Name another mother who could look down upon the infant Second Person of the Holy Trinity as she held him in her arms? All other mothers have looked up to GOD, not down.

Name another mother who bathed and cared for the Second Person of the Holy Trinity?

Name another mother who tucked in the Second Person of the Holy Trinity every night for years?

Name another mother who taught the Second Person of the Holy Trinity the same things that all mothers teach their children? Luke 2:51-52

Name another mother who, for thirty years, told the Second Person of the Holy Trinity what to do?

Name another mother who served the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, three meals a day?

Name another mother who sat across the table from the Holy Trinity every day for years at each meal? Think about it? Can the three persons of the Holy Trinity be separated? Are they three separate persons or are they three inseparable persons in one GOD? Since we all know that they are distinct but not separate, then all three persons are present wherever one is.

Name another mother who lived with the Second Person of the Holy Trinity for 30 years?

Just imagine, Jesus taught His disciples for only 3 years, but He taught His mother for many more.

Name another mother who started the Second Person of the Holy Trinity on His ministry? John 2:3-11

After all of this, how could anyone ever say, Mary is just a mother like any other mother?

Now I will ask those detractors, "Do you still think she was a mother just like any other mother?"

#1 In I Timothy 3:14-15, how do you know that the phrase "the pillar and bulwark of the truth" was not in reference to the living God and not the church?

"These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

Christ founded the church, not the Bible.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Jesus Christ wrote a book or commanded anyone else to write a Gospel. In fact the only place where it is recorded that He wrote anything at all, is in John 8:6-8. He wrote on the ground with His finger, and to this day, we do not even know what He wrote.

However, He did found a beautiful Church. He made her His Bride, and He made her a teaching Church.

His teaching Church had been in existence for over a decade before the first book of the New Testament was even written.

By the time Revelation, the last book of the Bible was written about 100 A.D., the Church was already on its fifth Pope.

#2 Christ is infallible, certainly. You will find nowhere in Scripture where it is stated that the church is infallible.

Do you believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God? How do you know? Nowhere in the Bible will you find a list that would tell the early Church Councils which books were inspired and which are not.

DEVELOPMENT OF THE NEW TESTAMENT CANON:

AD 51-125:

The New Testament books are written, but during this same period other early Christian writings are produced--for example, the Didache (c. AD 70), 1 Clement (c. 96), the Epistle of Barnabas (c. 100), and the 7 letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107).

AD 140:

Marcion, a businessman in Rome, taught that there were two Gods:

Yahweh, the cruel God of the Old Testament, and Abba, the kind father of the New Testament. Marcion eliminated the Old Testament as scriptures and, since he was anti-Semitic, kept from the New Testament only 10 letters of Paul and 2/3 of Luke's gospel (he deleted references to Jesus's Jewishness). Marcion's "New Testament", the first to be compiled, forced the mainstream Church to decide on a core canon: the four Gospels and Letters of Paul.

AD 200:

The periphery of the canon is not yet determined. According to one list, compiled at Rome c. AD 200 (the Muratorian Canon), the NT consists of the 4 gospels; Acts; 13 letters of Paul (Hebrews is not included); 3 of the 7 General Epistles (1-2 John and Jude); and also the Apocalypse of Peter.

AD 367:

The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in his Festal letter # 39 of 367 A.D..

AD 382:

Pope Damasus I, in a letter, listed the New Testament books in their present number and order.

AD 393:

The Council of Hippo affirmed the Canon written by Bishop Athanasius.

AD 397:

The Council of Carthage reaffirmed the Canons of the Old and New Testaments.

AD 1442:

At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognized the 27 books, though does not declare them unalterable. This council confirmed the Roman Catholic Canon of the Bible which Pope Damasus I had published a thousand years earlier.

AD 1536:

In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German, Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation) and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical.

AD 1546:

At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirmed once and for all the full list of 27 books as traditionally accepted.

Therefore, through the providence of God, He allowed fallible men to make an infallible decision to determine which books belonged in the Bible.

Exactly what does the word 'Infallible' mean when referring to the Bishop of Rome? There are so many misconceptions as to just what it means to others,:

1. The Pope cannot tell a lie.

2. The Pope cannot sin.

3. The Pope cannot make a mistake.

4. Everything the Pope says is the absolute truth.

5. The Pope is perfect in every way.

And the correct answer is...

'None' of the above.

If I were told to believe any of those answers, I would have second thoughts about 'Papal Infallibility' myself.

Substitute the name 'Jesus Christ' for 'the Pope' in all the answers above and the correct answer to all of them is a resounding 'YES'. The Pope is the human visible head of the Church, the Vicar of Christ on earth, just as Jesus Christ is the invisible head.

When he defines a doctrine regarding Faith or Morals to be held by the universal Church, by the divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding Faith or Morals; and therefore such definitions are irreformable of themselves, and not in virtue of consent of the Church."

Condensed, this means, a Papal infallible statement, when all conditions are met, has freedom from error in teaching the universal Church in matters of faith or morals.

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So, is the Bishop of Rome, the Pope a sinner?

Yes, we all are sinners. He is no different from the rest of us in that respect.

"But when Simon Peter saw this, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, 'Depart from me for I am a sinful man, O Lord'

...And Jesus said to Simon, 'Do not be afraid; henceforth thou shall catch men'." Luke 5:8-10.

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Now what about the authors of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter and others? Were they infallible people or were they sinners? As I have already shown, Peter admitted that he was a sinner, and we all know the story of Saul who became Paul. We know they were all sinners. How then, could fallible men write such inerrant documents as the books they authored? It is because they were guided by the Holy Spirit. GOD prevented them from writing error. GOD is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If GOD prevented these men from writing error, why then could He not do the same for the successor of St. Peter today?

[larryt]

Even though I'm not Catholic, I still view him as head of the church Jesus was speaking of...do you?

One title for the pope is VICAR OF CHRIST. The greek translation from the latin "VICAR" is "anti" meaning instead of. There you have it the pope has taken on the title of anti-christ. I did not say "THE" . John said there would be many antichrists.

1Jo 2:18

[Kabowd]

Is it customary on this board to take a particular religion and run it down.

Is this a Christian board?

Is this Christian behavior?

If this was addressed to me, could you clarify why? And is it customary to generalize everyone on the board because of the view of some?

of course, Christ is infallible...HE IS TRUTH...ALL of IT!

Did I ever say otherwise?

AND Christ IS THE CHURCH ... 4 And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" Acts 9:4

I'm sorry but one phrase out of one verse simply will not thoroughly prove your point. If you've read very much of Paul's writings, you will notice how (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) he relates the "church" as the "Body of Christ" and parallels the church to the relationship between a husband and a wife (see Ephesians 5:25). This theme is carried out throughout scripture, even into revelations where we (the church) referred to as the "Bride" and the Lamb (Jesus) is the Bridegroom. Thus, it is not a stretch to understand that just as a husband and wife become "one", Christ considers His Bride as part of Himself, part of His own body. This is why when he addressed Saul, He took his persecution of believers personally. Saul wasn't just opposing God's people, Jesus was declaring to Saul that he was also opposing God Himself. Also, please show me scripture where Jesus declares "I AM THE CHURCH". Numerous times we are told that Christ is the HEAD (as you noted), but I have not seen where He has stated that He and the church are one in the same.

do you ever ask anyone to pray for YOU?

Yes, but only those who are living....I've never requested prayers from the dead. Again, can you show me scripture where we are encouraged to do so?

The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. James 5:16

Once again, a solitary verse will not justify adopting a doctrine for me. This verse does NOT say "the prayer of a righteous dead man has great power in its effects".

She IS in heaven, already 'perfect' as our heavenly Father is perfect...and we believe in 'communion of the saints' AND that when you die, you LIVE FOREVER!

There are alot of ppl in heaven. I don't pray to any of them, other than God Himself. Just because they are bodily present with the Lord does not mean they are spiritually closer. The Holy Spirit dwells inside of me, why would I need to appeal to anyone else?

Would you like to address the rest of my previous post? Or just accuse me of "running down" your religion? I explained that I was asking questions because there are things I don't understand. Why are you so defensive when someone asks questions? We are called to pursue truth and wisdom, please don't criticize me for seeking to do so. Thanks.

[Guest Liv4Him2]

One title for the pope is VICAR OF CHRIST. The greek translation from the latin "VICAR" is "anti" meaning instead of. There you have it the pope has taken on the title of anti-christ. I did not say "THE" . John said there would be many antichrists

UNBELIEVABLE According to the dictionary: one serving as a substitute or agent; specifically : an administrative deputy 2 : an ecclesiastical agent: a member of the clergy who exercises a broad pastoral responsibility as the representative of a prelate

Authority, what is it? What does it mean? Its root is the word 'author', which means creator or originator. It is from the Latin "auctoritas", the creator's power to command or to make decisions. The dictionary defines it as, "the power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge". It also means, "one who is invested with this power, especially a government".

So the word can apply to a form of government as well as to an individual. The Senate has the authority to make laws, the Supreme Court has the authority to interpret those laws, and the President has the authority to enforce those laws.

What do you suppose would happen if there was no authority? There would be anarchy, unrest, chaos, everyone 'doing his own thing'. Civilization as we know it would collapse in very short order. Look at Albania. Within days of the collapse of authority, there was anarchy, with thousands trying to flee for their lives. Scripture reminds us, "Where there is no governor, the people shall fall, but there is safety where there is much counsel,"

Prov 11:14,24:6.

Authority comes from the "Author of Life", Acts 3:15. All authority comes from GOD, "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment." Rom 13:1-2. Notice that GOD is selective as to just who He gives authority.

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The Catholic Church has a form of government called a theocracy and operates as an "Hierarchy". Like any other form of government, it has to have "authority" to function.

The Church received its authority from its founder, Jesus Christ...

1. "You are Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", Mt 16:18. Jesus will build his Church on solid rock. He will be the 'cornerstone' Psa 118:22 and Eph 2:20-22, the 'foundation' (cornerstone) 1Cor 3:11, and the 'rock' 1Cor 10:4. The 'Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it', means, He will defend it from within and from without, against all adversaries for all time.

2. The Apostles are the foundation with Jesus Christ as the "Chief cornerstone", Eph 2:20.

3. Jesus Christ gave a higher authority for disputes between persons, even when there are two or more witnesses. He told them to appeal to the Church in Mt 18:17, "But if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be as a heathen and the publican (a tax collector for the Roman Empire)." Here, Christ gave full authority to His Church.

4. Paul admonishes those who refuse to accept the authority given to the Church and warns what will happen to them if they refuse in Rom 13:1-2, "Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities, for THERE EXISTS NO AUTHORITY EXCEPT FROM GOD, AND THOSE WHO EXIST HAVE BEEN APPOINTED BY GOD. Therefore HE WHO RESISTS THE AUTHORITY RESISTS THE ORDINANCE OF GOD; AND THEY THAT RESIST BRING ON THEMSELVES CONDEMNATION."

5. Jesus Christ Himself is the head of the Church He founded, the "Head of His Body", Eph 1:22. That is about as authoritative as can be attained.

6. Jesus Christ made sure that His Church was worthy of the authority which He gave to it. He made sure His Church was spotless, "In order that He might present to Himself to the Church in all her glory, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she might be holy and without blemish," Eph 5:27. He made sure His Church was worthy to be called the "House of GOD", and the "Pillar of Truth", "...how to conduct yourself in the House of GOD, which is the Church of the living GOD, the pillar and mainstay of the truth," 1Tim 3:15.

7. Jesus Christ loves the Church He founded, Eph 5:29. Do you?

8. GOD has said He will be with His Church forever, "I will never leave you, neither will I forsake you," Heb 13:5. In Mt 28:20, Jesus said, "I am with you all days, even until the end of the world." That means He will be with His Church every day in every century until the end of time. Which Church was His Church when these verses were uttered?

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GOD has given authority to several people in the Bible. He signifies the passing of authority by changing the name of the person. Some examples Are...

1. GOD renamed Abram to Abraham when He made him the 'Father of a Multitude of Nations' in Gen 17:5.

2. GOD renamed Sara to Sarah when He made her the 'Mother of Nations' in Gen 17:15-16.

3. GOD renamed Jacob to Israel, the name of the Jewish Nation, and he became the first Israeli in Gen 32:29.

4. GOD renamed Simon to Peter when He made him the head of His Church in Mt 16:18. Peter was given the authority by GOD, and GOD renamed him to emphasize it. In Mt 16:19, Jesus Christ gave Peter even more authority. He gave him, and none other, the 'keys to the kingdom of heaven', and told him, "Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." A lot of authority was given in these two verses to Simon, now Peter, a mere creature of GOD.

5. There are more than 50 verses in the Bible that refer to the supremacy of Peter over all of the Apostles. The name of Peter appears more often than the name of any other Apostle in the New Testament. When the Apostles are named, Peter is named first in every case except Gal 2:9. In Mt 10:2, Peter is even called "first", "Now these are the names of the twelve Apostles: FIRST Simon, who is called Peter...". In Acts 15:7, Peter said, "Brethren, you know that in early days GOD made choice among us, that through 'MY MOUTH' the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe." Peter recounted his supremacy, as GOD had given it to him in Mt 16:18-19. In Lk 22:31-31, Jesus said, "Simon, behold Satan has desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and do you when once you have turned again, strengthen your brethren." Here Jesus appointed Peter to strengthen the others, another clear sign of his supremacy. Finally, in Jn 21:15-17, it is Peter, and only Peter, to whom the Lord commands three times to feed his flock. Peter was the supreme Apostle. The present day supreme Bishop, the Bishop of Rome, is the Pope, Peter's direct successor in a long line of Popes.

6. Jesus Christ gave full authority to the Apostles when in Lk 10:16, He said, "He who hears you, hears Me; and he who rejects you, rejects Me; and he who rejects Me, rejects Him who sent Me." We hear His words through His Church. Therefore these words have to apply to His Church as well, 'he who rejects My Church rejects Me'. That verse also prevents the Pope from teaching heresy, so when the Pope speaks in matters of faith and morals, he is speaking as Christ would and with His authority. Paul acknowledged the authority given to the Apostles in 2Cor 10:8, "For even if I boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord has given for your upbuilding, and not for your destruction, I shall not be put to shame."

7. Jesus gave authority to 72 other disciples in Lk 10:1-12, and told them He sends them forth as 'lambs in the midst of wolves'. He told them to shake the dust off their feet from the towns that do not receive them.

8. We are commanded to obey our superiors (priests, Bishops, and the Pope) and to be subject to them, as they keep watch as having to render an account of our souls, Heb 13:17.

9. GOD placed others in His Church as well, "And GOD indeed has placed some in the Church, first Apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers; after that miracles, then gifts of healing, services of help, power of administration, and the speaking of various tongues," 1Cor 12:28. Does your Church have all these?

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Knowing of course, that the Apostles would not live forever, and that His Church would continue until the 'end of time'

(Mt 28:20), Jesus Christ made provision to pass on the authority from generation to generation...

1. "I laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let everyone take care how he builds thereon, for other foundations no one can lay, but that which has been laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1Cor 3:10-11. So there will be followers who will build upon the foundation.

2. "You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and have appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain...," Jn 15:16.

3. "...that you should set right anything that is defective and should appoint presbyters (priests) in every city as I myself directed you to do," Titus 1:5. Paul commands them to make new priests.

4. "Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as Bishops to rule the Church of GOD," Acts 20:28. Here the Bishops are given the authority by the Holy Spirit to rule the Church that Jesus Christ founded. Does your Church have Bishops?

5. "And now I commend you to GOD and to the word of His grace, who is able to build up and to give the inheritance among all the sanctified," Acts 20:32. Pass on the authority to your heirs.

6. The Pope and the Bishops are the lawful successors to the Apostles. If we reject their authority, then we reject Christ.

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It is the Holy Spirit who guides and guards the Church that Jesus Christ founded. He is the ultimate and final authority...

1. "I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you shall know Him, because He will dwell with you, and be in you," Jn 14:16-17,26, Jn 15:26,16:13. The Holy Spirit will dwell in the Church that Jesus Christ founded and He will be with that Church forever.

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Not all will be revealed to the Church at once because we could not bear it. It will all be revealed over time. This is the authorization for the Church to reveal doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception.

1. "Many things yet I have to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when the Spirit of Truth has come, he will teach you all the truth, ...and the things that are to come he will declare to you," Jn 16:12-15

2. "I fed you with milk, not with solid food, for you were not yet ready for it...I have planted...but GOD has given the growth," 1Cor 3:1-15.

3. Eph 4:11-16, "...in order to perfect the saints for a work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the deep knowledge of the Son of GOD, to perfect manhood to the mature measure of the fullness of Christ...that we may be now no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine devised in the wickedness of men, in craftiness, according to the wiles of error.

4. Phil 1:5-11, "...he who has begun a good work in you will bring it to perfection until the day of Christ...I pray that your charity may more and more abound in knowledge and all discernment." Clearly GOD is telling us that knowledge will increase with time.

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Now to answer the all important question, "Who has the authority?" In order to have only one truth, it is necessary to have only one authority. The Church that Jesus Christ founded, was given that authority as shown in this letter. Does your Church meet all the scriptural requirements given in this text? Can you trace your Church all the way back to Christ? If you can't, then your Church does not have the authority. If your Church does not have the authority, then why are you there? The main difference between the Catholic Church and all other Churches, is that the Catholic Church, and only the Catholic Church, has the authority...

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I would suggest that everyone read Numbers 16. It is about the rebellion to the authority of Moses by Korah and his followers. Moses did everything he could to try and convince Korah, pleading with him that he was wrong in doing this, and yet Korah and his followers rejected his pleas. Read the final outcome of Korah's rebellion in Numbers 16:30-35. It isn't pretty, but then Korah would not listen to Moses, who was the man on earth of whom GOD had chosen to lead His people. Now read about Martin Luther and his rebellion against the authority of the Catholic Church, and you will see that the story of Numbers 16 has repeated itself. Now read Numbers 16 again, but this time substitute the name of the founder of your church for Korah, and for Moses, the name of the Pope. Those who fail to profit from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.

"Nothing under the sun is new, neither is any man able to say: Behold this is new; for it has already gone before in the ages that were before us." Ecclesiastes 1:10

Have you ever read Psalms 127:1?

"Unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain who build it."

Now show me the verse(s) in the Bible which gives the authority to any human creature to found another church other than the ONE CHURCH which Jesus Christ founded?

Show me the verse(s) which authorizes anyone to simply hold up a Bible and proclaim, "This is my authority".

[larryt]

The antichrists don't like being exposed do they. The HEAD of the church is JESUS CHRIST.(PERIOD)

LT

[Guest shadow2b]

-QUOTE (Kandi @ Sep 19 2004, 09:40 AM)

Is it customary on this board to take a particular religion and run it down. 

yes it is...it is customary for those who are anti-catholic to 'run down' and degrade and diminish anyone who 'defends and supports' the catholic view on this board...that is why I left for a while...though, I've been back recently 

-#1--THAT'S A LIE -#2--NO ONE ON THESE BOARDS IS ANTI-CATHOLIC---BUT THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE ANT-CHRISTIAN---SECH AS THOSE THAT ARE FAIRY-TALE-TELLERS!!-IF ANYONE WAS ANTI-CATHOLIC---THERE WOULD BE NO CATHOLICS POSTING THEIR---ERRONEOUS VIEWS ON HERE ANYHOW!!!!- :x: :oww:

-YOU TWO-- OUGHTTA TAKE THIS *ACT* ON THA ROAD---YOU WOULD MAKE A FORTUNE$$$$- :suspect:

[Guest shadow2b]

-Thank you servinghim

I happen to think it is very unchristian to run down one particular religion and I would doubt the Christianity of those doing the running down rather than doubting the Christianity of the ones being run down.

-AHHHHHHHHHhhhhhh--YESSSS--JUDGEMENT FROM THE MOUNT HIGH---huhh??

-LIKE I SAID YOU TWO--SHOULD TAKE THIS *ACT*-ON THA ROAD---YOU WOULD MAKE A FORTUNE$$$-AS FOR YOUR JUDGEMENT-JUDGE THIS-OR JUDGE THIS--Oppppsssss--I FURGAT TA TAKE THA PITS OUTTA THEM PIES---DAGGONNE---

[Kabowd]

I'm sure this response will be perceived as further "running down" a religion, but oh well.

But do Catholics really pray to Mary or is there something others do not understand? I would be willing to bet they do not even examine the prayers we use to 'petition' Mary. Have you ever heard of the word 'intercession'? It is when we ask someone to pray for us. Lets look at a few Bible verses...

Rom 15:30, "...help me by your prayers to GOD for me."

Col 1:9, "This is why we too have been praying for you unceasingly."

1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more..."

2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you."

2Thes 3:1, "In conclusion brethren, pray for us..."

Jam 5:16, "...and pray for one another that you may be saved."

Rev 8:3-4 "...that he may offer it with the prayers of all the saints..."

The Bible is asking you to pray for one another. Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Have you ever told someone you will pray for them? Why then, when the name of Mary is introduced, is it not to be asked of her? Was she not a created being like all the rest of us? Why can we ask everyone else to pray for us, but we can't ask it of Mary?

Uh....because she is dead?

Many non-Catholics have the false belief that praying to "dead" people is useless. This is a mis-interpretation of what Holy Scripture teaches us, for the Blessed Virgin Mary and others who have gone on before us are not dead but live forever.

Maybe we see it as useless because Scripture never encourages us to do so? Please refer to my initial response to you. Specifically the part about Christ being our Mediator and the Holy Spirit dwelling inside each believer.

If you look up the word 'Blessed' in the dictionary, it means, 'Holy'

Dictionary? I do not base my doctrine or beliefs on what a dictionary defines. I base them on Scripture alone. Still waiting for verses that clearly states we are to pray to (or ask for prayers from) those who are dead.

GOD is telling us that Mary is Holy, and she should be venerated and revered. How can any person refuse to abide by this specific command in Luke 1:48 and still claim they follow the Bible?

I believe I just told you how

I'm skipping the rest of your post which is repetitive and seems to glorify Mary for a reason. You ignored my response to your initial post. Here, let me re-cap what you missed:

I'm curious why Mary's motherhood is significant. Sure, her womb was inhabited by the Savior but I find it more significant that following the Savior's fulfillment of His purpose, He inhabits all believers in our hearts (through the work of the Holy Spirit).

And this:

Let's look at the meaning of "blessed". The Greek word is "eulogeo" which is a combination of two words: "eu" (meaning: to be well off, fare well, prosper) and "logeo" (derived from "logos" meaning: a word, or thought of the mind - if I'm not mistaken, it's where we get our word "logic"). I'm not a Greek scholar, but I don't think you have to be one to see that being "blessed" or called "blessed" does not elevate someone's status to divinity. Mary may have been thought of as "prosperous" among women, but she is by no means the only one who was ever to be blessed. In Mark 14:22, the very same word "eulogeo" is used to say that Jesus "blessed the bread". The bread was blessed. Do you also pray to bread? In Luke 19:16, Jesus blessed the loaves and fishes. Do you also pray to fish? More importantly, according to Galatians 3:9, I am called "blessed" (along with all of those in Christ) ... if you've been praying to me, I'm sorry to say I haven't been hearing your prayers.

".. just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], "In you all the nations shall be blessed." So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." But that no one is *justified by the law in the sight of God [is] evident, for "the just shall live by faith." Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal 3:6-14 NKJV)

Now onto your other assertions:

Christ founded the church, not the Bible.

Remember that word "logos" we talked about earlier? Oh that's right...I think you ignored it. Anyway, it also happens to be the word used to describe Christ in I John 1. In other words, Christ is the WORD OF GOD in flesh. He didn't have to "found" the Bible, He lived it incarnate.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Jesus Christ wrote a book or commanded anyone else to write a Gospel. In fact the only place where it is recorded that He wrote anything at all, is in John 8:6-8. He wrote on the ground with His finger, and to this day, we do not even know what He wrote.

Oi vey. Refer to my response above. Also, do you not believe that Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit are One? If so, then how do you explain this?

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

By the time Revelation, the last book of the Bible was written about 100 A.D., the Church was already on its fifth Pope.

Your point? Also by the time of Revelation, numerous churches had adopted heresy and apostacy. Even during the time of Paul's missionary journeys he was having to address corruption within the Body of Christ. Ever hear of the church of Corinth?

Do you believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God? How do you know?

You don't? Refer to the scripture I listed above. If you do not believe that Scripture is the infallible Word of God...this is where I believe my conversation with you will probably end. If the Bible can't be established as our authority, then we have no absolutes or foundation with which to establish our faith.

Substitute the name 'Jesus Christ' for 'the Pope' in all the answers above and the correct answer to all of them is a resounding 'YES'.

Holy Ravioli!. I most certainly will not. I will never substitute the name of Jesus Christ with any other name. Ever.

The Pope is the human visible head of the Church, the Vicar of Christ on earth, just as Jesus Christ is the invisible head.

Still waiting for Scriptural support for this. Until then, I'm afraid all you have is presumption, and borderline blasphemy.

[Guest aggiekat]

Even though I'm not Catholic, I still view him as head of the church Jesus was speaking of...do you?

Absolutely not! Jesus is the head of His Church.

And Mary said,

"My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and Holy is His name." Luke 1:46-49

Certainly Mary was blessed. So were many other people, both male and female, who had faith in God and lived accordingly. Mary, Abraham, King David, Ruth (who wasn't even a Jew, yet was in Christ's bloodline), Ester, and countless others. Yes, Mary was blessed in a way that no one else was. But let's not get carried away. There have been many blessed women throughout history. It just happens that there is only one Jesus Christ, so only one godly lady was needed to fill the role of mother and childbearer. I do not deny that Mary was blessed, but I do think she is given more attention by the Catholic church than is healthy.

Is it customary on this board to take a particular religion and run it down.

Is this a Christian board?

Is this Christian behavior?

If a particular religion that calls itself Christianity seems to be falling away from Biblical truths, then yes, I think it is Christian behavior to point out the pitfalls in a gentle and loving manner. It would be much worse not to say anything out of not wanting to offend anyone. I have no doubt that there are Catholics who are Christian, but I truly believe that one is not the same as the other. A lot has been added the the Catholic faith than is in the Bible. Those are the things I worry about.

do you ever ask anyone to pray for YOU? That is what we do when we 'pray' to Mary...essentially it is not 'praying TO HER', but rather praying that SHE HEAR OUR PRAY and intercede for us to HER SON! She IS in heaven, already 'perfect' as our heavenly Father is perfect...and we believe in 'communion of the saints' AND that when you die, you LIVE FOREVER!

What??? First off, I doubt that anyone besides God can hear your prayers. He's the one who's omnipresent and all-knowing. Second, when Christ died, the temple veil was torn in two. This showed us that there was now no barrier between us and God. There is no intercessor to God except Jesus, and we don't have anyone passing messages between Jesus and ourselves. Not Mary and not the Pope.

The Bible is asking you to pray for one another. Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Have you ever told someone you will pray for them? Why then, when the name of Mary is introduced, is it not to be asked of her? Was she not a created being like all the rest of us? Why can we ask everyone else to pray for us, but we can't ask it of Mary?

We can pray for one another, certainly. It also helps that we can talk to and hear each other. Unless God has decided to tell Mary what you're trying to say to her, I don't think she can hear you. I don't think the Lord has a loud speaker set up in heaven that He broadcasts every prayer that He receives over. Ask your brothers and sisters for prayer because we are here with you. Mary's time here on earth was over a long time ago. She can't hear your voice.

After all of this, how could anyone ever say, Mary is just a mother like any other mother?

Now I will ask those detractors, "Do you still think she was a mother just like any other mother?"

Yes, Mary was just a mother. She was a mother with a very special child! The focus is supposed to be on Jesus Christ, not His mother! I think Mary would be apalled if she knew how much fuss was being made of her. I'm sure she would rather have the focus where it belongs, on Jesus Christ! When I read about Mary in the Bible, I do respect her. Certainly she succeeded in pleasing the Lord. For that she is to be admired. However, there are many other women in the Bible and living today wo also please the Lord. Mary's specific "job" for God was unique, but loving and serving Him is not. Acknowledge her and give her her due, but please, don't go too far.

The Pope is the human visible head of the Church, the Vicar of Christ on earth, just as Jesus Christ is the invisible head.

The Church is simply the body of believers. And Christ is the ONLY head of the Church. We don't need a single human leader. God never said we should have one. And certainly not one who seems to have as much earthly power and prestige as the Pope seems to have. We Christians are all to be brothers and sisters in Christ, lead by God's Word and the Holy Spirit inside of us. We aren't supposed to have any "Fathers" in the religious sense. We do have brothers who are meant to teach and preach. However, even they don't have sole control over the church they shepard.

When he defines a doctrine regarding Faith or Morals to be held by the universal Church, by the divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding Faith or Morals; and therefore such definitions are irreformable of themselves, and not in virtue of consent of the Church."

I got lost here... pretty much completely. Peter isn't divine as far as I understand it. Isn't that reserved for God? And if this is the Pope we're talking about, when did Peter talk to him? Peter, like Mary, has been out of the earthly circle for ages.

Liv4Him2 Seems to have done a lot of work and gone to a lot of effort. Unfortunately I don't agree with portions of it. No where in the Bible did Jesus say, "and you shall be called Catholics and Peter and his decendents shall be My mouth and your leader until I return." Or did I miss that somehow? And of course anyone who followed his directions to insert the name of the Pope where Moses is speaking and someone else into the speaking role of someone we all know was wrong would make us look wrong. That was really kind of pointless.

As for Moses... He was leading a group of people and God had clearly stated that Moses was to do so. Who told the Pope that he was in charge? Jesus said He would build His Church upon "this Rock", meaning the knowledge of Himself. Jesus Christ is the Cornerstone, and no one else. Peter was not the Rock that Christ spoke of. Peter doesn't even mean rock. It means a small rock, or a pebble. Peter was one of the leaders because he was one of the first believers. He was more mature in Christ, so of course he was one of those who taught. But I didn't see anywhere in the Word that Jesus told Peter that he was to be the spiritual leader to the entire world, and that all his decendents should take up the throne of power after him. O.o

Anyway... back to the basic point of the initial post. No, the Pope has little to no influence on me. I can't really respect anyone who claims to be the spiritual leader and earthly head of the Church. No one can usurp Jesus' place or power.

Kat

Edited September 19, 2004 by aggiekat