WN: Pope warns Lutherans of Christian challenge - Reuters

[OneLight]

Hi Chesterton....ok I'll leave the faith by works thing to one side at the moment, even though in all my debates with Catholics they say it is by Faith, but the reality is different.

The leading of the Holy Spirit is often missed by individuals and bodies of Believers, and there is a large mingling of the flesh, the world and at times devils, that hinder the leading of the Spirit. IT isn't something automatic, where one can sit on ones duff and everything falls into place...I believe the Bible teaches that we are led by the Spirit, when we yield to the Spirit. Also please note that it is not my claim that the Spirit leads those that are disciples of Jesus into all truth...have a gander at this:-

John 16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

I'm glad you understand my concerns regarding the other things I mentioned.

All the best. Botz

In John 16 Jesus speaking to the apostles, the leaders of the Church, not to Christians in general.

He makes this explicit here:

John 17

15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

John clarifies what this means in his first letter:

1 John 4

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Sorry I don't understand your point mate.

I'll give you a hint Brother ...

In John 16 Jesus speaking to the apostles, the leaders of the Church, not to Christians in general.

Chester believes that parts of the bible are not for Christians outside of the Apostleship. In other words, the promises Jesus made directly to the Apostles are not for us, but only for them. I have tried to show him his error, but he refuses to see.

Do you believe that God commanded you to go to Egypt and free the Jews? Do you believe that God gave you the keys to the Kingdom?

You must read the bible in context. Promises made to individuals or groups in scripture don't necessarily apply to everyone.

Jesus was clearly speaking to the apostles in John 14-17, as he was here. We are to follow their message, not create our own.

This promise doesn't apply to you and I either:

John 20

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

You are reaching pretty far Chester when you have to bring up the OT to dismiss what is given to us in the NT.

One challenge for you. Show me scripture that tells me that the Holy Spirit Jesus sent is different from one person to another.

[OneLight]

Hi Chesterton....ok I'll leave the faith by works thing to one side at the moment, even though in all my debates with Catholics they say it is by Faith, but the reality is different.

The leading of the Holy Spirit is often missed by individuals and bodies of Believers, and there is a large mingling of the flesh, the world and at times devils, that hinder the leading of the Spirit. IT isn't something automatic, where one can sit on ones duff and everything falls into place...I believe the Bible teaches that we are led by the Spirit, when we yield to the Spirit. Also please note that it is not my claim that the Spirit leads those that are disciples of Jesus into all truth...have a gander at this:-

John 16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

I'm glad you understand my concerns regarding the other things I mentioned.

All the best. Botz

In John 16 Jesus speaking to the apostles, the leaders of the Church, not to Christians in general.

He makes this explicit here:

John 17

15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

John clarifies what this means in his first letter:

1 John 4

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Sorry I don't understand your point mate.

I'll give you a hint Brother ...

In John 16 Jesus speaking to the apostles, the leaders of the Church, not to Christians in general.

Chester believes that parts of the bible are not for Christians outside of the Apostleship. In other words, the promises Jesus made directly to the Apostles are not for us, but only for them. I have tried to show him his error, but he refuses to see.

Do you believe that God commanded you to go to Egypt and free the Jews? Do you believe that God gave you the keys to the Kingdom?

You must read the bible in context. Promises made to individuals or groups in scripture don't necessarily apply to everyone.

Jesus was clearly speaking to the apostles in John 14-17, as he was here. We are to follow their message, not create our own.

This promise doesn't apply to you and I either:

John 20

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

You are reaching pretty far Chester when you have to bring up the OT to dismiss what is given to us in the NT.

One challenge for you. Show me scripture that tells me that the Holy Spirit Jesus sent is different from one person to another.

That is not the issue. The issue is authority. The Holy Spirit will not contradict himself. If you disagree with the Church then you are disagreeing with the authority created by Christ.

If there is contradiction when it comes to doctrine, it is not the Holy Spirit's fault, it is the fault of human pride.

When you confuse the authority given to the Church for your own authority you are bound to make mistakes.

Yes, it is the issue. What I disagree with is the interpretation your church has on scripture, not the body of Christ. As you state, it is mans pride that hinders the Holy Spirit, such as the pride your church has when appointing one person, the pope, to be the final word on scripture instead of following the Holy Spirit Himself. Your pride is thick.

Your post proves that you cannot provide us with scripture that states that there is a difference. Your silence of scripture defeats your statement that what we are not blessed as the Apostles were blessed. No, we don't have the same office, but we do have the same Holy Spirit who will teach us, guide us, change us, renew us, make us Christ like, and part gifts to us.

[OneLight]

Hi Chesterton....ok I'll leave the faith by works thing to one side at the moment, even though in all my debates with Catholics they say it is by Faith, but the reality is different.

The leading of the Holy Spirit is often missed by individuals and bodies of Believers, and there is a large mingling of the flesh, the world and at times devils, that hinder the leading of the Spirit. IT isn't something automatic, where one can sit on ones duff and everything falls into place...I believe the Bible teaches that we are led by the Spirit, when we yield to the Spirit. Also please note that it is not my claim that the Spirit leads those that are disciples of Jesus into all truth...have a gander at this:-

John 16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

I'm glad you understand my concerns regarding the other things I mentioned.

All the best. Botz

In John 16 Jesus speaking to the apostles, the leaders of the Church, not to Christians in general.

He makes this explicit here:

John 17

15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

John clarifies what this means in his first letter:

1 John 4

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Sorry I don't understand your point mate.

I'll give you a hint Brother ...

In John 16 Jesus speaking to the apostles, the leaders of the Church, not to Christians in general.

Chester believes that parts of the bible are not for Christians outside of the Apostleship. In other words, the promises Jesus made directly to the Apostles are not for us, but only for them. I have tried to show him his error, but he refuses to see.

Do you believe that God commanded you to go to Egypt and free the Jews? Do you believe that God gave you the keys to the Kingdom?

You must read the bible in context. Promises made to individuals or groups in scripture don't necessarily apply to everyone.

Jesus was clearly speaking to the apostles in John 14-17, as he was here. We are to follow their message, not create our own.

This promise doesn't apply to you and I either:

John 20

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

You are reaching pretty far Chester when you have to bring up the OT to dismiss what is given to us in the NT.

One challenge for you. Show me scripture that tells me that the Holy Spirit Jesus sent is different from one person to another.

That is not the issue. The issue is authority. The Holy Spirit will not contradict himself. If you disagree with the Church then you are disagreeing with the authority created by Christ.

If there is contradiction when it comes to doctrine, it is not the Holy Spirit's fault, it is the fault of human pride.

When you confuse the authority given to the Church for your own authority you are bound to make mistakes.

Yes, it is the issue. What I disagree with is the interpretation your church has on scripture, not the body of Christ. As you state, it is mans pride that hinders the Holy Spirit, such as the pride your church has when appointing one person, the pope, to be the final word on scripture instead of following the Holy Spirit Himself. Your pride is thick.

Your post proves that you cannot provide us with scripture that states that there is a difference. Your silence of scripture defeats your statement that what we are not blessed as the Apostles were blessed. No, we don't have the same office, but we do have the same Holy Spirit who will teach us, guide us, change us, renew us, make us Christ like, and part gifts to us.

We all are called to different roles by the same Holy Spirit.

Roles, yes.

1 Corinthians 12:27-21

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

Nowhere does it say that the Holy Spirit will teach some and not others. Nor does it say He will guide some and not others. That is not to be found anywhere in scripture, but in church dogma created by man to hold authority over others through pride.

[OneLight]

1 Corinthians 12:27-21

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

Nowhere does it say that the Holy Spirit will teach some and not others. Nor does it say He will guide some and not others. That is not to be found anywhere in scripture, but in church dogma created by man to hold authority over others through pride.

Who did the Holy Spirit tell to teach something different than the apostles?

Who did the Holy Spirit tell not to listen to the leaders chosen by the apostles?

What evidence do you have for this bizarre belief that everyone gets to make up their own doctrines?

This is your way of turning it around and you use it every time you don't have an answer for the questions asked you. Instead of admitting that there is no scriptural backing for my belief, your pride causes you to turn the tables ... but to answer your questions.

The Holy Spirit never told anyone any such thing, and of course, you know this. Now you are going to tell me all about the succession of the Apostleship up to the present pope, which is a man created position. That no longer flies. you have been shown that the succession is bogus. With that, the pope interrupts scripture his way, which is not always according to scripture.

The Holy Spirit teaches and guides us exactly the same way He did the Apostles. If there is error, it is with us, not Him. The difference is that with us who believe this way, we are to blame. With you, however, if there is error, you can point to the church and blame it, but that won't fly either because it is your responsibility to follow scripture before man.

[nebula]

The more you defend the RCC, chesterton, the more I dislike it.

[nebula]

The more you defend the RCC, chesterton, the more I dislike it.

That's between you and God. I know what my responsibility is.

Anyone who is deceived can believe they are doing God's duty.

So far you have given all non-Catholics the left-foot of fellowship.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

The more you defend the RCC, chesterton, the more I dislike it.

Hey Neb,

Here's the thing - I don't find that chesterton articulates the arguments of the RCC as well as many defenders of the doctrines do, but ultimately chesterton's an excellent example of what the RCC has to offer - so much so that for a while I was wondering if he was a protestant troll posing as a Catholic to try to incite hostility towards Catholicism (just something that spun through my mind momentarily, not something to be seriously considered).

The gift of chesterton's contribution here, I think, is that we get down to the real brass tacks of the issue. Do we accept the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor. 11:3) and accept the verses that tell us the gospel is that salvation is a free gift (Romans 6:23) to anyone who believes by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), or do we accept the compounding voluminous tomes of writings and stipulations, Councils and Bulls, Decrees and Dogmas, etc. of those who claim to be apostles despite how their interpretations may come across to us.

Ultimately it comes down to that, which chesterton here makes plain, and I would submit that it is the question of whether or not you accept Jesus as the sole mediator (which Biblical Christianity says is the gospel of salvation and any denial of which is rewarded with eternal damnation as seen in Galatians 1:9), or if the Church is required for salvation as per the Canons of the supposedly Holy Spirit decreed Ecumenical Council of Trent (in which it decrees eternal damnation for anyone who rejects the salvation offered via the mediation of the Roman Catholic Church).

The Bible makes it clear that the gospel must not be altered or else you are damned, and the RCC makes it clear that unless you submit to their decrees you are damned.

Therefore I submit that the question really is how do we live if we reject so great a salvation - so we have to pick one.

I used to think of Catholicism as just a sort of quirky form of Christianity, but tragically I no longer think I can afford to believe that such is true. It is either the only way to Christ or it is a false way and a perversion of the gospel.

For all the "fine-sounding arguments" the RCC can offer, I think what we get here with chesterton is the bald-faced dilemma at it's core, stripped of the frills and gimmicks.

Do we accept the gospel of Christ or do we accept another mediator than Christ alone by accepting the mediation of a supposedly infallible institution, another communion that submits Christ to public disgrace by offering him up daily, another remission for sins with the ongoing remission of sins and works-basis for contributing to salvation, and therefore another (insufficient) Christ, and another gospel - in short, do we reduce our faith to just another works-based religion or are we saved by a personal relationship by grace, through faith, not by works.

I think we need to listen to Chesterton and recognize what’s really being offered by the RCC, and what we’d have to concede in order to accept Catholicism as a true manifestation of Christianity… and as a result, if we care for people, I think it's clear that we need to send life-lines into the Catholic Church to warn its adherence of the consequences of choosing to submit to the Catholic Church.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

What evidence do you have for this bizarre belief that everyone gets to make up their own doctrines?

Scipture says that it is "holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 3:15).

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

What evidence do you have for this bizarre belief that everyone gets to make up their own doctrines?

Scipture says that it is "holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 3:15).

But scripture can be and is interpreted in many contradictory ways.

So then you're saying that because scripture can be in contradictory ways, then scripture can't actually make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus, but instead the Church can?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Following a false teaching based on scripture is still following a false teaching.

Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, follow scripture and yet they deny the divinity of Christ. Have they been made wise for salvation by scripture?

The question isn't have they, but could they.

Are you saying that because scripture can be in contradictory ways, then scripture cannot actually make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus, but instead it requires the Church?