What ELSE Happens at the Gathering of the Saints?

[Montana Marv]

Roy

Matt 24:15 is a Directive DO IT... So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel, let the reader understand, THEN let those who are in Judea FLEE to the mountains. This is an order, a directive; When you see standing in the holy place ..... FLEE. When you see standing in the holy place..... FLEE; When you see standing in the holy place..... FLEE. Who are those who are to FLEE, those in Judea. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers; What days; this time of fleeing, will be dreadful. Now pray, that when you are to flee, that your fleeing will not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

v.21 - For then there WILL BE Great Distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world......

Rev 12:13 - When the dragon saw that he had be hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman (Israel) who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given two wings of a great eagle so that she might fly (FLEE) to the place prepared for her in the desert; where she might be taken care of for a time, times, and half of a time (3 1/2 Years or 42 Months). This last 3 1/2 Years is this time of Great Distress mentioned in Matt 24:15.

Jeremiah 30:7 - How awful that day will be, None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob. v. 8 - In that day declares the Lord Almighty; I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds....

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Sorry, bro', but I can't let this go: What Yeshua` was talking about as a "Distress" (and I would like to edit my own statement in the above; I was using Montana Marv's words of "Great Distress," but it was just a "distress" or "pressure" that Yeshua` was talking about in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, not a "great distress" or a "great pressure") in the Olivet Discourse is NOT something that has been around since Cain and Abel (Qayin and Hevel)! It was a FRESH "distress" or "pressure" generated when Yeshua` left the Jews' house "desolate!" It was unlike ANYTHING that the Jews had suffered before!

At first, they were supposed to take the hint from Isra'el's (the northern Kingdom's) demise; then they were supposed to take the hint from their own 70 years of captivity! Then, they had to wait 483 years for God's Messiah, their King Apparent, to arrive! NOW, who knows how much time it will take before they learn to accept GOD'S choice for their King instead of their own attempts at self-government?!

Hi Retrobyter,

From reading your version, it appears that you are saying that the desolation is the distress or tribulation, but the desolation is actually the end result of the Roman armies sacking Jerusalem, destroying the temple and scattering the Jews, leaving Jerusalem desolate. This was fulfilled in 70 AD, but it is not the future tribulation.

Hopefully, I was clear for Montana Marv, but for your sake as well, allow me to clarify: You're right. The desolation is NOT the distress or tribulation. HOWEVER, that desolation was the SOURCE of the distress or tribulation that began in the first century A.D., and it was caused by the abominations that multiplied among the Jews of the first century because of their leadership - the "overspreading of abominations." The Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes, priests, and levites were the ELDERS of the tribe of Y'hudah. It was their DUTY to prepare the people to accept YHVH'S Mashiach, His Christ, His Anointed One, His Selection for the position of King, first of Y'hudah and then of all Yisra'el. Instead, they rejected Him and led the people to do likewise with their cries of "Crucify him!" Therefore, He left them desolate, and that desolation culminated in the persistent distress/tribulation that they would then suffer off-and-on since the first century to the present.

You also appear to minimize this future tribulation/great tribulation, assuming that it has already been fulfilled in the first century. Not even close, my friend. Everything from Matthew 24:15 all the way through chapter 25 still lies in the future. This great tribulation, a time so troubling the world has never seen anything like it before now, and never will again. You cannot minimize it without forcing yourself waaaay out of bounds. The Roman armies on horseback in the 1st century wasn't as horrible as WWII, yet WWII will look like a picnic compared to the future tribulation, when God will gather (all) nations against Jerusalem at the time of the end. No war in the history of man will be able to compare to the one that lies ahead (Armageddon).

Not at all. I believe in a future "great tribulation"; however, I do NOT believe that anyone should find it being taught by Yeshua` in the Olivet Discourse. It's in Rev. 7:14; that's enough. Everything from Matt. 24:15 on is NOT all about the future! Much of it is in the past leading up to the future! Sometime, do a study on the Greek versions of each account and harmonize them BEFORE translating the result into English! It will show you the truth about the Olivet Discourse.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Not at all. I believe in a future "great tribulation"; however, I do NOT believe that anyone should find it being taught by Yeshua` in the Olivet Discourse. It's in Rev. 7:14; that's enough. Everything from Matt. 24:15 on is NOT all about the future! Much of it is in the past leading up to the future! Sometime, do a study on the Greek versions of each account and harmonize them BEFORE translating the result into English! It will show you the truth about the Olivet Discourse.

Hello Retrobyter,

We have a major disagreement here! Rev. 7:14 tells nothing about the great tribulation itself. It only shows where the great multitude which no one could number had come out of it. The answer to these things are right in front of you. All we have to do is receive them as Christ laid them out.

First, let's look at the question from His disciple's.

Matt. 24:1-3

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Notice that Christ already told them about the temple being destroyed before they even asked, but they wanted to know when the temple would be destroyed first, then about His coming and the time of the end. He gave them nothing about the timing of the temple's destruction whatsoever. In fact, He said all He was going to say about the temple's destruction in verse (2) and said nothing more about it at all. Instead, He begins telling them about His coming and then the end of the world or age. He began by telling them not to be deceived about His coming, and that several things need to happen first, but the end is not yet:

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Christ gave no time frames of when these things would happen, however, He pointed back to the prophet Daniel, who was given some very telling and important information about these things. And yes, He is definitely describing the great tribulation at the time of the end. Let's take a look.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Now, to show that Christ and Daniel are on the same page, talking about the same subject, lets compare their words below.

Matthew 24:21

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

To be sure, what Daniel called a time of trouble that never was since there was a nation to that same time, Christ called it a great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be. They are one and the same. And guess what? You don't need to read it in greek to see this. It is slapping us right in the face.

What we are actually looking at here, is Christ expounding on the limited knowledge that Daniel was given before he was ordered to shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end. This is the increase of knowledge that Daniel was promised. Many scholars are going to be shocked when they read my book and find out that the increase of knowledge has absolutely nothing to do with modern technology, as they have been teaching. Their failure to recognize this has also caused them to miss many new clues that have been hidden about the rapture, which Christ hid in the parables in Matthew 24 & 25.

Daniel 12:1-4

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Matthew 13:34-35

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

If you think this is about the diaspora in the first century, you got another thing coming.

Cheers

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Not at all. I believe in a future "great tribulation"; however, I do NOT believe that anyone should find it being taught by Yeshua` in the Olivet Discourse. It's in Rev. 7:14; that's enough. Everything from Matt. 24:15 on is NOT all about the future! Much of it is in the past leading up to the future! Sometime, do a study on the Greek versions of each account and harmonize them BEFORE translating the result into English! It will show you the truth about the Olivet Discourse.

Hello Retrobyter,

We have a major disagreement here! Rev. 7:14 tells nothing about the great tribulation itself. It only shows where the great multitude which no one could number had come out of it. The answer to these things are right in front of you. All we have to do is receive them as Christ laid them out.

First, let's look at the question from His disciple's.

Matt. 24:1-3

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Notice that Christ already told them about the temple being destroyed before they even asked, but they wanted to know when the temple would be destroyed first, then about His coming and the time of the end. He gave them nothing about the timing of the temple's destruction whatsoever. In fact, He said all He was going to say about the temple's destruction in verse (2) and said nothing more about it at all. Instead, He begins telling them about His coming and then the end of the world or age. He began by telling them not to be deceived about His coming, and that several things need to happen first, but the end is not yet:

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Sorry, brother, but that IS a major problem and that is why I say you MUST harmonize the three accounts! Now, if you want to go back to the '70s and harmonize them in the English by using A.T. Robertson's Harmony of the Gospels or Davies' Harmony of the Gospels, be my guest. It's better than just hugging one of the three accounts. However, as I said, it is better to go back to the Greek, harmonize the three accounts in the Greek, and THEN translate the result into English.

You will find that the three accounts (as a union, not an intersection) go more like this:

And Yeshua` went out, departing from the temple, and His students came to show Him the buildings of the temple. And as some were speaking about the temple that it was adorned [with] goodly stones and consecrated gifts, and as he (was) departing out from the temple, one out of His students said to Him, “Teacher, see what stones and what buildings!”

And Yeshua`answering, said to him, “Do you see these huge buildings?”

But He responding, also said to them, “Do y’all not see all these things? I confirm to you the days in which these things which ye are beholding will come, no, there shall surely not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not - surely not – be torn down!”

But He sat down upon the Har haZeitiym (the Mountain of the Olives). And as He was sitting upon the Har haZeitiym opposite the temple, the students, Kefa (Peter), Ya`acov (James), Yochanan (John) and Andreas (Andrew), approached Him privately saying, “But, Teacher, tell us then - when shall these things be? And what [shall be] the sign of thy revealing? What shall be the sign[/color when all these things are about to take place and the entire completion of the age?”

But Yeshua` answering, began to say and saying to them [all], “Look out so that no one misleads you [and] ye be led astray! For many will come upon my authority when saying, ‘I am the Messiah, and the time is drawn near,’ and they will mislead many. Therefore, don’t go with them, but when ye shall attend, ye shall hear of wars and reports of wars; discern clearly; don’t be frightened nor be-terrified [in the] commotion. It is necessary, for all these things must happen first, but the conclusion is not immediately, not yet.”

I am using RED for Matthew's account, GOLD for Mark's account, and BLUE for Luke's account. Just as RED and GOLD (YELLOW) make ORANGE, it represents places where Matthew and Mark agree. GREEN text was written in both Mark's and Luke's accounts, and VIOLET (PURPLE) text was written in both Matthew's and Luke's accounts. BROWN (DARK RED) text was written in all three accounts.

...

Do you see what I mean? THERE'S MORE TO THE STORY! You MUST read the Olivet Discourse from all three accounts simultaneously to get the complete picture of what all was said!

(Please forgive the rest, but it's not easy changing all these colors. The rest will just be green for normal text and red for the words of the Master, Yeshua` haMashiach.)

Then He said to them, “For nation shall awaken upon nation and kingdom upon kingdom, and there-shall-be famines and plagues, and there shall be huge earthquakes and troubles down various locations. Also fearful sights and great signs shall be from [the] skies, but all these-things [are the] beginning of labor pains.

“But, you look out for yourselves! However before all these things, they will lay their hands upon you, and they will persecute [you], delivering [you] up. Then shall you be surrendered into pressure: For you shall be surrendered into sanhedrims, bringing [you into] prisons and into synagogues. Ye will be beaten, and ye will be brought before governors and kings and they shall kill you on account of my authority. But, it shall turn out to you [to be] a testimony to them, and the good message must be proclaimed into all the Gentile nations first. But when they may lead you away, delivering you up, do not rehearse nor premeditate what ye should say, but that whatever may be given to you in that hour, this speak. For ye are not they who speak but the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit/Wind). Therefore, calm your heart not to premeditate to make a defense. For I will give you a mouth and a wisdom to which all those opposing you shall not be able to reply nor to resist. However, ye will be delivered up also by parents and siblings and relatives and friends, and they will put [some] from among you to death. But even a brother will deliver up a brother into death and a father a child, and children will rise up against parents and deliver them to death. And ye shall be hated by all the Gentile nations on account of my authority, and [yet] not a hair out of your head may ever perish. By your patient endurance, [you shall] gain your breathers/lives. And then, many shall be led to offend and one another shall be revealed and will hate one another. And many lying prophets will arise and will mislead many. Also, because the [ones] against the Torah will have been multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. However, the [one who] stays under it into the conclusion, he himself shall be rescued. And the good news about the kingdom shall be heralded then in all of the habitable world into a witness to all the Gentile nations and then shall come the conclusion.

But when ye therefore shall see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has drawn near - The Abomination of the Desolation – the [one which] was spoken about by Dani'el the prophet - standing in [the] holy place where it must not be (let the reader understand), then let those in Y'hudah (Judah) flee into the mountains. However, [let] the [one] upon the roof-top not come down into the house nor go inside to take anything out of his house. And [don’t] let the [one] in the field back into the [city]; he is not to return to take his clothes, and let those in [the] middle of it depart out and don’t let those in the countrysides enter into it. For these are the days of vengeance; all things which are written may be fulfilled. But <ooaahee!> to the [one] who is pregnant and to those [who] breast-feed in those days! But pray so that your flight may not be in [the] rainy season (“winter”) nor on Shabbat (the Sabbath); for then those days shall be the huge pressure - no - nor has been its like since [the] beginning of Creation of [the] habitable world which God created until the present - no - nor ever shall be, and if [the] Master had not shortened those days, there would not have been any flesh rescued. But on account of the chosen [ones] whom He chose, He has shortened the days [and] those days shall be shortened. For huge distress will be upon the Land and violent passion in this people. And they shall fall by the edge (mouth) of [the] sword and shall be led away captive into all the Gentile nations, and Jerusalem shall be trampled under by Gentile nations until the times of the Gentile nations be fulfilled. And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here's the Messiah!’ or ‘Here [He is]!’ or ‘Look, there!’ Don't (you) believe (it)! For lying Messiahs and lying prophets will arise and will produce great signs and miracles to the deception so as to mislead if possible even the chosen (ones). But ye, watch out! Look, I have forewarned all (things) to you! Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look! [He’s] in the wilderness!’ don’t go out there! ‘Look! [He’s] in the chambers!’ Don’t you believe [it]! For as the lightning flashes out from [the] east and shines as far as [the] west, so too the Revealing of the Son of Man shall be. For wherever the carcase may be, there the vultures will be gathered together.

“However, in those days, immediately after the pressure of those days, there will be signs in [the] sun, moon and stars: the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not shine its light and the stars shall fall out of the sky (meteors) and the stars shall be fallen out of the sky (meteorites) and distress of Gentile nations in confusion, [the] roaring sea and waves upon the earth, and men’s hearts failing them from fear, [from] looking after those (things) which are coming on the habitable world; for even the powers which (are) in the skies shall be shaken.

“And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the sky. And then all the families of the Land shall mourn and they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud - coming in [and] upon the clouds of the sky - with great power and great brightness. And then He shall send His messengers with a loud trumpeting sound, and they shall gather together His chosen (ones) out of the four winds from one extremity of [the] earth to an extremity of [the] sky to the other extremity. But [when] these things beginning to come to pass, look up and raise up your heads, for your redemption draws near.”

And He spoke a parable to them,

"But, learn the parable from the fig tree: Look at the fig tree, even all the trees; When already its branch is beginning [to be] green, they shoot forth now and it puts forth the leaves, ye see for yourselves it is known that now summer is close. So when ye see all these things likewise come to pass ye know that the kingdom of God is close upon (the) threshhold. I confirm to you that this generation will not ever have passed until each one of these things be fulfilled [and] until the whole of these things be fulfilled. The sky and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall never pass away.

"But no man knows concerning of that day and of that hour, not even those messengers of the sky in (the) sky neither the Son but only my Father. But like the days of Noach (Noah) [were], in the same way will be also the Revealing of the Son of Man:

"For like they in those same days that [were] before the Flood were munching and guzzling, marrying and arranging marriages, until that day Noach (Noah) entered into the ark, and were not aware until the Flood came and swept absolutely all away, so the Revealing of the Son of Man shall also be the same way. Then two shall be in the field: the one shall be received near and the other shall be sent forth. Two shall be grinding at the mill house: one (feminine) shall be received near and one (feminine) shall be sent forth.

"However, watch yourselves so at no time your hearts be weighed down with hangovers and intoxication and distractions of this life, and that the day stand upon you unexpectedly. For it shall come as a trap upon all those who dwell on [the] surface of the whole earth. Therefore, stay awake! Pray at every occasion that ye may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man. Watch out, stay awake, and wish forward to God! For ye don’t know when the time will be!

"As a man journeying abroad who left his household and gave to his slaves the authority and to each one his [own] assignment and commanded the front door guard to stay awake guarding, therefore then YE guard for ye don’t know when - what time – your master, the master of the household, will come, at dusk or midnight or cockcrowing or at dawn! Otherwise, he will come suddenly to find you sleeping! But that which I say to you, I say to all: Stay awake!

"But know this: that if the householder had known in what watch the burglar would come, he would have watched better and would better not have allowed [him] to break into his house. Through that [analogy], ye be ready, too; the Son of the Man shall come at such a time that ye won’t imagine."

(I will continue with more later.)

Edited November 23, 2011 by Retrobyter

[Montana Marv]

Roy

You are now misstating what you believe.

I will highlight in bold red, and then show you.

Then He said to them, “For nation shall awaken upon nation and kingdom upon kingdom, and there-shall-be famines and plagues, and there shall be huge earthquakes and troubles down various locations. Also fearful sights and great signs shall be from [the] skies, but all these-things [are the] beginning of labor pains.

“But, you look out for yourselves! However before all these things, they will lay their hands upon you, and they will persecute [you], delivering [you] up. Then shall you be surrendered into pressure: For you shall be surrendered into sanhedrims, bringing [you into] prisons and into synagogues. Ye will be beaten, and ye will be brought before governors and kings and they shall kill you on account of my authority. But, it shall turn out to you [to be] a testimony to them, and the good message must be proclaimed into all the Gentile nations first. But when they may lead you away, delivering you up, do not rehearse nor premeditate what ye should say, but that whatever may be given to you in that hour, this speak. For ye are not they who speak but the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit/Wind). Therefore, calm your heart not to premeditate to make a defense. For I will give you a mouth and a wisdom to which all those opposing you shall not be able to reply nor to resist. However, ye will be delivered up also by parents and siblings and relatives and friends, and they will put [some] from among you to death. But even a brother will deliver up a brother into death and a father a child, and children will rise up against parents and deliver them to death. And ye shall be hated by all the Gentile nations on account of my authority, and [yet] not a hair out of your head may ever perish. By your patient endurance, [you shall] gain your breathers/lives. And then, many shall be led to offend and one another shall be revealed and will hate one another. And many lying prophets will arise and will mislead many. Also, because the [ones] against the Torah will have been multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. However, the [one who] stays under it into the conclusion, he himself shall be rescued. And the good news about the kingdom shall be heralded then in all of the habitable world into a witness to all the Gentile nations and then shall come the conclusion.

But when ye therefore shall see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has drawn near - The Abomination of the Desolation – the [one which] was spoken about by Dani'el the prophet - standing in [the] holy place where it must not be (let the reader understand), then let those in Y'hudah (Judah) flee into the mountains. However, [let] the [one] upon the roof-top not come down into the house nor go inside to take anything out of his house. And [don’t] let the [one] in the field back into the [city]; he is not to return to take his clothes, and let those in [the] middle of it depart out and don’t let those in the countrysides enter into it. For these are the days of vengeance; all things which are written may be fulfilled. But <ooaahee!> to the [one] who is pregnant and to those [who] breast-feed in those days! But pray so that your flight may not be in [the] rainy season (“winter”) nor on Shabbat (the Sabbath); for then those days shall be the huge pressure - no - nor has been its like since [the] beginning of Creation of [the] habitable world which God created until the present - no - nor ever shall be, and if [the] Master had not shortened those days, there would not have been any flesh rescued. But on account of the chosen [ones] whom He chose, He has shortened the days [and] those days shall be shortened. For huge distress will be upon the Land and violent passion in this people. And they shall fall by the edge (mouth) of [the] sword and shall be led away captive into all the Gentile nations, and Jerusalem shall be trampled under by Gentile nations until the times of the Gentile nations be fulfilled. And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here's the Messiah!’ or ‘Here [He is]!’ or ‘Look, there!’ Don't (you) believe (it)! For lying Messiahs and lying prophets will arise and will produce great signs and miracles to the deception so as to mislead if possible even the chosen (ones). But ye, watch out! Look, I have forewarned all (things) to you! Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look! [He’s] in the wilderness!’ don’t go out there! ‘Look! [He’s] in the chambers!’ Don’t you believe [it]! For as the lightning flashes out from [the] east and shines as far as [the] west, so too the Revealing of the Son of Man shall be. For wherever the carcase may be, there the vultures will be gathered together.

“However, in those days, immediately after the pressure of those days, there will be signs in [the] sun, moon and stars: the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not shine its light and the stars shall fall out of the sky (meteors) and the stars shall be fallen out of the sky (meteorites) and distress of Gentile nations in confusion, [the] roaring sea and waves upon the earth, and men’s hearts failing them from fear, [from] looking after those (things) which are coming on the habitable world; for even the powers which (are) in the skies shall be shaken.

“And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the sky. And then all the families of the Land shall mourn and they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud - coming in [and] upon the clouds of the sky - with great power and great brightness. And then He shall send His messengers with a loud trumpeting sound, and they shall gather together His chosen (ones) out of the four winds from one extremity of [the] earth to an extremity of [the] sky to the other extremity. But [when] these things beginning to come to pass, look up and raise up your heads, for your redemption draws near.”

Now you are interchanging the (abomination which causes desolation, the desolation which is the abomination) which you have already referred to as being when Israel rejected Christ. Their rejection was what made them desolation, and that was the abomination. And now you are referring to this same abomination that causes desolation in the above text as happening at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Which do we believe, either, both or none of the above. When you have referenced Dan 9:27 in the past, you say the he/He is referring to Christ, and that the (abomination which causes desolation, the desolation which is the abomination) was at Christs crucifixion. Now you are interjecting this same A/D as happening in 70 AD.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[rollinTHUNDER]

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Not at all. I believe in a future "great tribulation"; however, I do NOT believe that anyone should find it being taught by Yeshua` in the Olivet Discourse. It's in Rev. 7:14; that's enough. Everything from Matt. 24:15 on is NOT all about the future! Much of it is in the past leading up to the future! Sometime, do a study on the Greek versions of each account and harmonize them BEFORE translating the result into English! It will show you the truth about the Olivet Discourse.

Hello Retrobyter,

We have a major disagreement here! Rev. 7:14 tells nothing about the great tribulation itself. It only shows where the great multitude which no one could number had come out of it. The answer to these things are right in front of you. All we have to do is receive them as Christ laid them out.

First, let's look at the question from His disciple's.

Matt. 24:1-3

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Notice that Christ already told them about the temple being destroyed before they even asked, but they wanted to know when the temple would be destroyed first, then about His coming and the time of the end. He gave them nothing about the timing of the temple's destruction whatsoever. In fact, He said all He was going to say about the temple's destruction in verse (2) and said nothing more about it at all. Instead, He begins telling them about His coming and then the end of the world or age. He began by telling them not to be deceived about His coming, and that several things need to happen first, but the end is not yet:

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Sorry, brother, but that IS a major problem and that is why I say you MUST harmonize the three accounts! Now, if you want to go back to the '70s and harmonize them in the English by using A.T. Robertson's Harmony of the Gospels or Davies' Harmony of the Gospels, be my guest. It's better than just hugging one of the three accounts. However, as I said, it is better to go back to the Greek, harmonize the three accounts in the Greek, and THEN translate the result into English.

You will find that the three accounts (as a union, not an intersection) go more like this:

And Yeshua` went out, departing from the temple, and His students came to show Him the buildings of the temple. And as some were speaking about the temple that it was adorned [with] goodly stones and consecrated gifts, and as he (was) departing out from the temple, one out of His students said to Him, “Teacher, see what stones and what buildings!”

And Yeshua`answering, said to him, “Do you see these huge buildings?”

But He responding, also said to them, “Do y’all not see all these things? I confirm to you the days in which these things which ye are beholding will come, no, there shall surely not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not - surely not – be torn down!”

But He sat down upon the Har haZeitiym (the Mountain of the Olives). And as He was sitting upon the Har haZeitiym opposite the temple, the students, Kefa (Peter), Ya`acov (James), Yochanan (John) and Andreas (Andrew), approached Him privately saying, “But, Teacher, tell us then - when shall these things be? And what [shall be] the sign of thy revealing? What shall be the sign[/color when all these things are about to take place and the entire completion of the age?”

But Yeshua` answering, began to say and saying to them [all], “Look out so that no one misleads you [and] ye be led astray! For many will come upon my authority when saying, ‘I am the Messiah, and the time is drawn near,’ and they will mislead many. Therefore, don’t go with them, but when ye shall attend, ye shall hear of wars and reports of wars; discern clearly; don’t be frightened nor be-terrified [in the] commotion. It is necessary, for all these things must happen first, but the conclusion is not immediately, not yet.”

I am using RED for Matthew's account, GOLD for Mark's account, and BLUE for Luke's account. Just as RED and GOLD (YELLOW) make ORANGE, it represents places where Matthew and Mark agree. GREEN text was written in both Mark's and Luke's accounts, and VIOLET (PURPLE) text was written in both Matthew's and Luke's accounts. BROWN (DARK RED) text was written in all three accounts.

...

Do you see what I mean? THERE'S MORE TO THE STORY! You MUST read the Olivet Discourse from all three accounts simultaneously to get the complete picture of what all was said!

(Please forgive the rest, but it's not easy changing all these colors. The rest will just be green for normal text and red for the words of the Master, Yeshua` haMashiach.)

Then He said to them, “For nation shall awaken upon nation and kingdom upon kingdom, and there-shall-be famines and plagues, and there shall be huge earthquakes and troubles down various locations. Also fearful sights and great signs shall be from [the] skies, but all these-things [are the] beginning of labor pains.

“But, you look out for yourselves! However before all these things, they will lay their hands upon you, and they will persecute [you], delivering [you] up. Then shall you be surrendered into pressure: For you shall be surrendered into sanhedrims, bringing [you into] prisons and into synagogues. Ye will be beaten, and ye will be brought before governors and kings and they shall kill you on account of my authority. But, it shall turn out to you [to be] a testimony to them, and the good message must be proclaimed into all the Gentile nations first. But when they may lead you away, delivering you up, do not rehearse nor premeditate what ye should say, but that whatever may be given to you in that hour, this speak. For ye are not they who speak but the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit/Wind). Therefore, calm your heart not to premeditate to make a defense. For I will give you a mouth and a wisdom to which all those opposing you shall not be able to reply nor to resist. However, ye will be delivered up also by parents and siblings and relatives and friends, and they will put [some] from among you to death. But even a brother will deliver up a brother into death and a father a child, and children will rise up against parents and deliver them to death. And ye shall be hated by all the Gentile nations on account of my authority, and [yet] not a hair out of your head may ever perish. By your patient endurance, [you shall] gain your breathers/lives. And then, many shall be led to offend and one another shall be revealed and will hate one another. And many lying prophets will arise and will mislead many. Also, because the [ones] against the Torah will have been multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. However, the [one who] stays under it into the conclusion, he himself shall be rescued. And the good news about the kingdom shall be heralded then in all of the habitable world into a witness to all the Gentile nations and then shall come the conclusion.

But when ye therefore shall see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has drawn near - The Abomination of the Desolation – the [one which] was spoken about by Dani'el the prophet - standing in [the] holy place where it must not be (let the reader understand), then let those in Y'hudah (Judah) flee into the mountains. However, [let] the [one] upon the roof-top not come down into the house nor go inside to take anything out of his house. And [don’t] let the [one] in the field back into the [city]; he is not to return to take his clothes, and let those in [the] middle of it depart out and don’t let those in the countrysides enter into it. For these are the days of vengeance; all things which are written may be fulfilled. But <ooaahee!> to the [one] who is pregnant and to those [who] breast-feed in those days! But pray so that your flight may not be in [the] rainy season (“winter”) nor on Shabbat (the Sabbath); for then those days shall be the huge pressure - no - nor has been its like since [the] beginning of Creation of [the] habitable world which God created until the present - no - nor ever shall be, and if [the] Master had not shortened those days, there would not have been any flesh rescued. But on account of the chosen [ones] whom He chose, He has shortened the days [and] those days shall be shortened. For huge distress will be upon the Land and violent passion in this people. And they shall fall by the edge (mouth) of [the] sword and shall be led away captive into all the Gentile nations, and Jerusalem shall be trampled under by Gentile nations until the times of the Gentile nations be fulfilled. And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here's the Messiah!’ or ‘Here [He is]!’ or ‘Look, there!’ Don't (you) believe (it)! For lying Messiahs and lying prophets will arise and will produce great signs and miracles to the deception so as to mislead if possible even the chosen (ones). But ye, watch out! Look, I have forewarned all (things) to you! Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look! [He’s] in the wilderness!’ don’t go out there! ‘Look! [He’s] in the chambers!’ Don’t you believe [it]! For as the lightning flashes out from [the] east and shines as far as [the] west, so too the Revealing of the Son of Man shall be. For wherever the carcase may be, there the vultures will be gathered together.

“However, in those days, immediately after the pressure of those days, there will be signs in [the] sun, moon and stars: the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not shine its light and the stars shall fall out of the sky (meteors) and the stars shall be fallen out of the sky (meteorites) and distress of Gentile nations in confusion, [the] roaring sea and waves upon the earth, and men’s hearts failing them from fear, [from] looking after those (things) which are coming on the habitable world; for even the powers which (are) in the skies shall be shaken.

“And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the sky. And then all the families of the Land shall mourn and they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud - coming in [and] upon the clouds of the sky - with great power and great brightness. And then He shall send His messengers with a loud trumpeting sound, and they shall gather together His chosen (ones) out of the four winds from one extremity of [the] earth to an extremity of [the] sky to the other extremity. But [when] these things beginning to come to pass, look up and raise up your heads, for your redemption draws near.”

And He spoke a parable to them,

"But, learn the parable from the fig tree: Look at the fig tree, even all the trees; When already its branch is beginning [to be] green, they shoot forth now and it puts forth the leaves, ye see for yourselves it is known that now summer is close. So when ye see all these things likewise come to pass ye know that the kingdom of God is close upon (the) threshhold. I confirm to you that this generation will not ever have passed until each one of these things be fulfilled [and] until the whole of these things be fulfilled. The sky and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall never pass away.

"But no man knows concerning of that day and of that hour, not even those messengers of the sky in (the) sky neither the Son but only my Father. But like the days of Noach (Noah) [were], in the same way will be also the Revealing of the Son of Man:

"For like they in those same days that [were] before the Flood were munching and guzzling, marrying and arranging marriages, until that day Noach (Noah) entered into the ark, and were not aware until the Flood came and swept absolutely all away, so the Revealing of the Son of Man shall also be the same way. Then two shall be in the field: the one shall be received near and the other shall be sent forth. Two shall be grinding at the mill house: one (feminine) shall be received near and one (feminine) shall be sent forth.

"However, watch yourselves so at no time your hearts be weighed down with hangovers and intoxication and distractions of this life, and that the day stand upon you unexpectedly. For it shall come as a trap upon all those who dwell on [the] surface of the whole earth. Therefore, stay awake! Pray at every occasion that ye may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man. Watch out, stay awake, and wish forward to God! For ye don’t know when the time will be!

"As a man journeying abroad who left his household and gave to his slaves the authority and to each one his [own] assignment and commanded the front door guard to stay awake guarding, therefore then YE guard for ye don’t know when - what time – your master, the master of the household, will come, at dusk or midnight or cockcrowing or at dawn! Otherwise, he will come suddenly to find you sleeping! But that which I say to you, I say to all: Stay awake!

"But know this: that if the householder had known in what watch the burglar would come, he would have watched better and would better not have allowed [him] to break into his house. Through that [analogy], ye be ready, too; the Son of the Man shall come at such a time that ye won’t imagine."

(I will continue with more later.)

I have read the other accounts and none of them nullify Matthew's account. Two of the three had Christ pointing back to Daniel and the abomination of desolation at the time of the end. But Luke did not mention Daniel or even the angels gathering the elect, but this does not disqualify the other two accounts by any means.

You claim to see a major problem looking at all of the accounts together, but I see no problem at all. Granted, the other accounts offered a few new things, and maybe even some events that were to happen in the 1st century, but we (you and I) have a different opinion about the great tribulation at the time of the end. You say it can not be found in any of the accounts, but scripture clearly shows it can be and is. I don't see a way for you to wiggle your way around this.

Two of the three pointed back to Daniel's prophecy. Daniel is the one that was given the timeline, and the abomination of desolation and great tribulation are clearly going to take place at the end of the age. There is no doubt about it. If you can't see it, oh well. It's not my place to try to force you to see it. But as they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. But it's as plain as day to me.

Cheerio

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Not at all. I believe in a future "great tribulation"; however, I do NOT believe that anyone should find it being taught by Yeshua` in the Olivet Discourse. It's in Rev. 7:14; that's enough. Everything from Matt. 24:15 on is NOT all about the future! Much of it is in the past leading up to the future! Sometime, do a study on the Greek versions of each account and harmonize them BEFORE translating the result into English! It will show you the truth about the Olivet Discourse.

Hello Retrobyter,

We have a major disagreement here! Rev. 7:14 tells nothing about the great tribulation itself. It only shows where the great multitude which no one could number had come out of it. The answer to these things are right in front of you. All we have to do is receive them as Christ laid them out.

First, let's look at the question from His disciple's.

Matt. 24:1-3

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Notice that Christ already told them about the temple being destroyed before they even asked, but they wanted to know when the temple would be destroyed first, then about His coming and the time of the end. He gave them nothing about the timing of the temple's destruction whatsoever. In fact, He said all He was going to say about the temple's destruction in verse (2) and said nothing more about it at all. Instead, He begins telling them about His coming and then the end of the world or age. He began by telling them not to be deceived about His coming, and that several things need to happen first, but the end is not yet:

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Sorry, brother, but that IS a major problem and that is why I say you MUST harmonize the three accounts! Now, if you want to go back to the '70s and harmonize them in the English by using A.T. Robertson's Harmony of the Gospels or Davies' Harmony of the Gospels, be my guest. It's better than just hugging one of the three accounts. However, as I said, it is better to go back to the Greek, harmonize the three accounts in the Greek, and THEN translate the result into English.

You will find that the three accounts (as a union, not an intersection) go more like this:

And Yeshua` went out, departing from the temple, and His students came to show Him the buildings of the temple. And as some were speaking about the temple that it was adorned [with] goodly stones and consecrated gifts, and as he (was) departing out from the temple, one out of His students said to Him, “Teacher, see what stones and what buildings!”

And Yeshua`answering, said to him, “Do you see these huge buildings?”

But He responding, also said to them, “Do y’all not see all these things? I confirm to you the days in which these things which ye are beholding will come, no, there shall surely not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not - surely not – be torn down!”

But He sat down upon the Har haZeitiym (the Mountain of the Olives). And as He was sitting upon the Har haZeitiym opposite the temple, the students, Kefa (Peter), Ya`acov (James), Yochanan (John) and Andreas (Andrew), approached Him privately saying, “But, Teacher, tell us then - when shall these things be? And what [shall be] the sign of thy revealing? What shall be the sign[/color when all these things are about to take place and the entire completion of the age?”

But Yeshua` answering, began to say and saying to them [all], “Look out so that no one misleads you [and] ye be led astray! For many will come upon my authority when saying, ‘I am the Messiah, and the time is drawn near,’ and they will mislead many. Therefore, don’t go with them, but when ye shall attend, ye shall hear of wars and reports of wars; discern clearly; don’t be frightened nor be-terrified [in the] commotion. It is necessary, for all these things must happen first, but the conclusion is not immediately, not yet.”

I am using RED for Matthew's account, GOLD for Mark's account, and BLUE for Luke's account. Just as RED and GOLD (YELLOW) make ORANGE, it represents places where Matthew and Mark agree. GREEN text was written in both Mark's and Luke's accounts, and VIOLET (PURPLE) text was written in both Matthew's and Luke's accounts. BROWN (DARK RED) text was written in all three accounts.

...

Do you see what I mean? THERE'S MORE TO THE STORY! You MUST read the Olivet Discourse from all three accounts simultaneously to get the complete picture of what all was said!

(Please forgive the rest, but it's not easy changing all these colors. The rest will just be green for normal text and red for the words of the Master, Yeshua` haMashiach.)

Then He said to them, “For nation shall awaken upon nation and kingdom upon kingdom, and there-shall-be famines and plagues, and there shall be huge earthquakes and troubles down various locations. Also fearful sights and great signs shall be from [the] skies, but all these-things [are the] beginning of labor pains.

“But, you look out for yourselves! However before all these things, they will lay their hands upon you, and they will persecute [you], delivering [you] up. Then shall you be surrendered into pressure: For you shall be surrendered into sanhedrims, bringing [you into] prisons and into synagogues. Ye will be beaten, and ye will be brought before governors and kings and they shall kill you on account of my authority. But, it shall turn out to you [to be] a testimony to them, and the good message must be proclaimed into all the Gentile nations first. But when they may lead you away, delivering you up, do not rehearse nor premeditate what ye should say, but that whatever may be given to you in that hour, this speak. For ye are not they who speak but the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit/Wind). Therefore, calm your heart not to premeditate to make a defense. For I will give you a mouth and a wisdom to which all those opposing you shall not be able to reply nor to resist. However, ye will be delivered up also by parents and siblings and relatives and friends, and they will put [some] from among you to death. But even a brother will deliver up a brother into death and a father a child, and children will rise up against parents and deliver them to death. And ye shall be hated by all the Gentile nations on account of my authority, and [yet] not a hair out of your head may ever perish. By your patient endurance, [you shall] gain your breathers/lives. And then, many shall be led to offend and one another shall be revealed and will hate one another. And many lying prophets will arise and will mislead many. Also, because the [ones] against the Torah will have been multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. However, the [one who] stays under it into the conclusion, he himself shall be rescued. And the good news about the kingdom shall be heralded then in all of the habitable world into a witness to all the Gentile nations and then shall come the conclusion.

But when ye therefore shall see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has drawn near - The Abomination of the Desolation – the [one which] was spoken about by Dani'el the prophet - standing in [the] holy place where it must not be (let the reader understand), then let those in Y'hudah (Judah) flee into the mountains. However, [let] the [one] upon the roof-top not come down into the house nor go inside to take anything out of his house. And [don’t] let the [one] in the field back into the [city]; he is not to return to take his clothes, and let those in [the] middle of it depart out and don’t let those in the countrysides enter into it. For these are the days of vengeance; all things which are written may be fulfilled. But <ooaahee!> to the [one] who is pregnant and to those [who] breast-feed in those days! But pray so that your flight may not be in [the] rainy season (“winter”) nor on Shabbat (the Sabbath); for then those days shall be the huge pressure - no - nor has been its like since [the] beginning of Creation of [the] habitable world which God created until the present - no - nor ever shall be, and if [the] Master had not shortened those days, there would not have been any flesh rescued. But on account of the chosen [ones] whom He chose, He has shortened the days [and] those days shall be shortened. For huge distress will be upon the Land and violent passion in this people. And they shall fall by the edge (mouth) of [the] sword and shall be led away captive into all the Gentile nations, and Jerusalem shall be trampled under by Gentile nations until the times of the Gentile nations be fulfilled. And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here's the Messiah!’ or ‘Here [He is]!’ or ‘Look, there!’ Don't (you) believe (it)! For lying Messiahs and lying prophets will arise and will produce great signs and miracles to the deception so as to mislead if possible even the chosen (ones). But ye, watch out! Look, I have forewarned all (things) to you! Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look! [He’s] in the wilderness!’ don’t go out there! ‘Look! [He’s] in the chambers!’ Don’t you believe [it]! For as the lightning flashes out from [the] east and shines as far as [the] west, so too the Revealing of the Son of Man shall be. For wherever the carcase may be, there the vultures will be gathered together.

“However, in those days, immediately after the pressure of those days, there will be signs in [the] sun, moon and stars: the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not shine its light and the stars shall fall out of the sky (meteors) and the stars shall be fallen out of the sky (meteorites) and distress of Gentile nations in confusion, [the] roaring sea and waves upon the earth, and men’s hearts failing them from fear, [from] looking after those (things) which are coming on the habitable world; for even the powers which (are) in the skies shall be shaken.

“And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the sky. And then all the families of the Land shall mourn and they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud - coming in [and] upon the clouds of the sky - with great power and great brightness. And then He shall send His messengers with a loud trumpeting sound, and they shall gather together His chosen (ones) out of the four winds from one extremity of [the] earth to an extremity of [the] sky to the other extremity. But [when] these things beginning to come to pass, look up and raise up your heads, for your redemption draws near.”

And He spoke a parable to them,

"But, learn the parable from the fig tree: Look at the fig tree, even all the trees; When already its branch is beginning [to be] green, they shoot forth now and it puts forth the leaves, ye see for yourselves it is known that now summer is close. So when ye see all these things likewise come to pass ye know that the kingdom of God is close upon (the) threshhold. I confirm to you that this generation will not ever have passed until each one of these things be fulfilled [and] until the whole of these things be fulfilled. The sky and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall never pass away.

"But no man knows concerning of that day and of that hour, not even those messengers of the sky in (the) sky neither the Son but only my Father. But like the days of Noach (Noah) [were], in the same way will be also the Revealing of the Son of Man:

"For like they in those same days that [were] before the Flood were munching and guzzling, marrying and arranging marriages, until that day Noach (Noah) entered into the ark, and were not aware until the Flood came and swept absolutely all away, so the Revealing of the Son of Man shall also be the same way. Then two shall be in the field: the one shall be received near and the other shall be sent forth. Two shall be grinding at the mill house: one (feminine) shall be received near and one (feminine) shall be sent forth.

"However, watch yourselves so at no time your hearts be weighed down with hangovers and intoxication and distractions of this life, and that the day stand upon you unexpectedly. For it shall come as a trap upon all those who dwell on [the] surface of the whole earth. Therefore, stay awake! Pray at every occasion that ye may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man. Watch out, stay awake, and wish forward to God! For ye don’t know when the time will be!

"As a man journeying abroad who left his household and gave to his slaves the authority and to each one his [own] assignment and commanded the front door guard to stay awake guarding, therefore then YE guard for ye don’t know when - what time – your master, the master of the household, will come, at dusk or midnight or cockcrowing or at dawn! Otherwise, he will come suddenly to find you sleeping! But that which I say to you, I say to all: Stay awake!

"But know this: that if the householder had known in what watch the burglar would come, he would have watched better and would better not have allowed [him] to break into his house. Through that [analogy], ye be ready, too; the Son of the Man shall come at such a time that ye won’t imagine."

(I will continue with more later.)

I have read the other accounts and none of them nullify Matthew's account. Two of the three had Christ pointing back to Daniel and the abomination of desolation at the time of the end. But Luke did not mention Daniel or even the angels gathering the elect, but this does not disqualify the other two accounts by any means.

You claim to see a major problem looking at all of the accounts together, but I see no problem at all. Granted, the other accounts offered a few new things, and maybe even some events that were to happen in the 1st century, but we (you and I) have a different opinion about the great tribulation at the time of the end. You say it can not be found in any of the accounts, but scripture clearly shows it can be and is. I don't see a way for you to wiggle your way around this.

Two of the three pointed back to Daniel's prophecy. Daniel is the one that was given the timeline, and the abomination of desolation and great tribulation are clearly going to take place at the end of the age. There is no doubt about it. If you can't see it, oh well. It's not my place to try to force you to see it. But as they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. But it's as plain as day to me.

Cheerio

They will never "nullify" or "disqualify" Matthew's account. All three accounts are true and correct. They don't "nullify" each other; they SUPPLEMENT each other! Information that one account may have missed, another account will supply. My point is this: IF we do not look at all three TRUE accounts and how they supplement each other, then OUR interpretation of ONE account may become "slanted" away from the truth, not because IT is wrong, but because WE are wrong in how we interpret that account! An enormous amount of prophecy buffs spend an inordinate amount of time in Matthew to the neglect of Mark and Luke!

Timing is everything. If you will compare the three accounts together, especially in the Greek first, you will find that where Matthew and Mark talk about the prophecy in Dani'el (by Gavri'el, not by Dani'el, btw), the "abomination of desolation" (which is from Dan. 9 and not Dan. 11 or 12), you will find Jerusalem being surrounded by armies (troops) in Luke's account! Do you really think that's just a coincidence?! These are NOT two different things; they are being EQUATED!

Furthermore, there is NO "Great Tribulation" in any of the three accounts. Even in Matthew's account, the "Great Tribulation" is NOT THERE! It is merely a POTENTIALLY "great pressure" or "great distress" IF they had to escape during the rainy season or on a Shabbat! They didn't have to do either (because they prayed as instructed), and such a "GREAT pressure" or "GREAT distress" WAS AVOIDED!!! IT DIDN"T HAPPEN!!! Therefore, it DIDN"T EXIST!!! And, if it was to exist, it would have happened in the first century, NOT IN OUR TIME! Horses have a will of their own, but they are dumb animals. A savvy person, if led to MUDDIED water, can go ELSEWHERE to drink!

In the Messiah's love,

Roy

[Montana Marv]

Roy

Matt 24:22 - If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.

It appears that Christ Himself says that there will be a 'Great Distress" and that the days of the "Great Distress will be shortened", or no flesh would survive.

Then immediately after the distress of those days; At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn, they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. The Second Coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Montana Marv.

Roy

Matt 24:22 - If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.

It appears that Christ Himself says that there will be a 'Great Distress" and that the days of the "Great Distress will be shortened", or no flesh would survive.

Then immediately after the distress of those days; At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn, they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. The Second Coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

It's not the "Great Distress" that is "shortened"; it's just the "Distress" that is "shortened." Among the myriads of days since the Jews were left desolate, the NUMBER of days of "Distress" have been shortened so that it was not a constant "Distress" since the days that the Temple was destroyed and Yerushalayim emptied. The shortening of the days give us the ability to NAME the periods of "Distress" that the Jews (and believers) have suffered over the last 2000 years: persecutions, inquisitions, Crusades, pogroms, and even the Holocaust are such periods down through the years. And, as I've said before, I believe that the terrorist activities they have to suffer both in Yerushalayim and around the world are also included within those "days of Distress." And, had it been a constant "pressure," no flesh (of God's people) would have survived! But, God is FAITHFUL!

An interesting word in the Tanakh (the OT) to which one should pay close attention is the Hebrew word "checed," translated in the KJV as "lovingkindness." This word does have that meaning that God gives His grace, mercy and love, but the word has more meaning than that in Hebrew! The word "checed" also means "covenant-keeping!" God is a gracious God to be sure, but He also keeps His covenants! So, when the Scriptures say,...

Psalm 89:1-52

1 I will sing of the mercies (chac'deey) of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.

2 For I have said, Mercy (checed) shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.

3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?

7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

8 O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?

9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.

10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.

11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.

13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.

14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy (checed) and truth shall go before thy face.

15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.

16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.

17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.

18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.

22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.

24 But my faithfulness and my mercy (v-chacdiy) shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28 My mercy (chacdiy) will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness (v-chacdiy) will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.

39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.

40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.

41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.

42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.

43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.

44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.

45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.

46 How long, Lord? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?

47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?

48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses (chacaadeykhaa), which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?

50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;

51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O Lord; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.

52 Blessed be the Lord for evermore. Amen, and Amen.

KJV

it is talking about God's faithfulness to His covenants, particularly to David and His children, including the Messiah Yeshua`!

THIS is what Yeshua` was talking about in the Olivet Discourse. His prophecy follows directly on the heels of the desolation of Matt. 23:38.

In the Messiah's love,

Roy

[Montana Marv]

Roy

A quote of yours from above; An interesting word in the Tanakh (the OT) to which one should pay close attention is the Hebrew word "checed," translated in the KJV as "lovingkindness." This word does have that meaning that God gives His grace, mercy and love, but the word has more meaning than that in Hebrew! The word "checed" also means "covenant-keeping!" God is a gracious God to be sure, but He also keeps His covenants! So, when the Scriptures say,...

So in this matter of Covenant keeping: We know that God never breaks His Covenants. And it seams that Israel also knows this. Then why would the "he" (if this is indeed Christ, which I think not) in Dan 9:27 ever need to confirm, make strong, re affirm an old Covenant. Christ does not need to confirm, make strong or re affirm any Covenant which He has already made; It is a done deal. It was in the written in God's Word. It is there for all to see.

In Christ

Montana Marv