These ALL Died but They Are Still NOT Perfect!

[OneLight]

Future saints had already achieved eternal life before they were ever born because God already knew, before He even created the earth, who would accept Christ and who would not.

WOW! Does anybody else believe this doctrine? And where is this supported in God's word? Just curious!

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Eccl12v13, do you believe God is Omniscient?

[mizzdy]

Eternal life only comes when He returns, changes those in the grave and those alive. And when the millennial reign is over and all is said and done, then comes the forever after.

Eternal life is right now. Eternal life begins the minute you are saved. We can know that we have today. Eternal life is a person, really. Jesus is Eternal Life.

We are not eternal beings yet, we have that promise by and through Him we will obtain that eternal life when we are resurrected and changed. These bodies still die, still hold diseases, we are still physically part of this fallen world. I know that I am saved, I know that I am promised eternal life and that will come when I am changed out of this physical body but not before. I do see a difference in what is promised and when it is fully given. I do agree with you that Yeshua is eternal and when we are of Him and in Him we also will see that eternal life.

shalom,

Mizz

[Guest shiloh357]

Eternal life only comes when He returns, changes those in the grave and those alive. And when the millennial reign is over and all is said and done, then comes the forever after.

Eternal life is right now. Eternal life begins the minute you are saved. We can know that we have today. Eternal life is a person, really. Jesus is Eternal Life.

We are not eternal beings yet, we have that promise by and through Him we will obtain that eternal life when we are resurrected and changed. These bodies still die, still hold diseases, we are still physically part of this fallen world. I know that I am saved, I know that I am promised eternal life and that will come when I am changed out of this physical body but not before. I do see a difference in what is promised and when it is fully given. I do agree with you that Yeshua is eternal and when we are of Him and in Him we also will see that eternal life.

shalom,

Mizz

We are not physically eternal beings at this time. But we have already been given eternal life right now. The Bible says:

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

(1Jn 5:11-13)

This tells me that I can know that I HAVE eternal life right now. Jesus who IS eternal life lives in my in the person of the Holy Spirit. I have been given and possess eternal life and so do all who have received Christ as Savior and Lord. The final manifestation of our gift of eternal life will be when we receive our incorruptable bodies. But to say that we are still waiting to receive eternal life is just not true.

[Guest shiloh357]

[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

That is not the promise being spoken of. It was precisely the comeing of the future Seed of Abraham through which the familes of the world would be blessed. You dont' konw what you are talking about.

Are you saying......

"........THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT."

is NOT talking about being made perfect?

How is it NOT?

You also said that the promise that Paul speaks of that the saints of old did not see was the coming of the Lord. But Paul said that the promise that was promised to them would NOT happen WITHOUT HIM!

But Paul DID see the coming of the Lord. So how could that be the promise that he is speaking about?

According to God's word when will the saints of old along with Paul become spirit? At the LAST trump!

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I think you are misuderstanding how the word perfect is being used. The word "perfect" as is used in v. 40 doesn't mean sinless perfection. Rather, it is used here to mean "complete." The writer of Hebrews has listed a number of people who demonstrated through their works and even through the giving of their lives, the great faith they had toward God. Their righteous deeds demonstrate the authentic faith they possessed.

But in v. 40, the author is saying that they are not complete without us. What he is saying that is that the story of the faithful doesn't end with the OT saints; it continues on to us and in v. 1 of chapter 12 of Hebrews, he tells us to look to Jesus who is author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross and despised its shame. This is the better thing provided for us. We have Jesus. We have the promised Messiah and we can look to Him as our supreme model of faith. The OT saints look forward to the promise in faith and they did marvelous things out of that faith. But we look backwards to fulfillment of promise. Jesus is the promise that the saints of the OT longed for but did not see.

[Guest]

Job was well aware that there would come a set point in time

He Trusted

My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity. Job 14:17

In The LORD

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13

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when the Lord would call him out of the grave and he would be changed.

Oh

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. John 19:25-27

Halleluajh~!

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:22-24

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And he knew that change did not happen the moment he died!

Trusting

Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!

That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever! Job 19:23-24

In His Holy Name

Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. James 5:10-11

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Believe

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

And Be Blessed Beloved

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Love, Joe

[Ephesians__6_24]

Future saints had already achieved eternal life before they were ever born because God already knew, before He even created the earth, who would accept Christ and who would not.

WOW! Does anybody else believe this doctrine? And where is this supported in God's word? Just curious!

.

Matthew 25

³³And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

³⁴Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

prepared for your from when ?

Ephesians 1

⁴According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

⁵Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Did God predestine unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself ?

Proverbs 19

²¹Many are the thoughts in a man's heart, but the counsel of Jehovah, that doth stand.

[Eccl12v13]

³⁴Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

prepared for your from when ?

WHAT was prepared from the foundations of the world? God's kingdom! It does not say that there were people that was prepared and ready to go into the kingdom. It says that the KINGDOM was ready at the beginning!

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[Ephesians__6_24]

³⁴Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

prepared for your from when ?

WHAT was prepared from the foundations of the world? God's kingdom! It does not say that there were people that was prepared and ready to go into the kingdom. It says that the KINGDOM was ready at the beginning!

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"It does not say that there were people that was prepared and ready to go into the kingdom."

"prepared and ready to go into the kingdom" - could you explain this?

It does say:

Psalm 139 NKJV

¹³ For You formed my inward parts;

You covered me in my mother’s womb.

¹⁴ I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;

Marvelous are Your works,

And that my soul knows very well.

¹⁵ My frame was not hidden from You,

When I was made in secret,

And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

¹⁶ Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.

And in Your book they all were written,

The days fashioned for me,

When as yet there were none of them.

NKJV

so - before the believer is born, the believer's days were fashioned for him.. in God's book the believer's days were all written - NKJV

(is it the same for the unbeliever? - yes:

Job 12:16 - ...the deceived and the deceiver are [God's].

(both those who are deceived by satan, and satan - are God's...))

John 10

²⁶But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

²⁷My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

²⁸And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

²⁹My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 8

²⁴I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Proverbs 16:4

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Job 21:30

the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction... they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Exodus 9

¹³And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.

¹⁴For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.

¹⁵For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.

¹⁶And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

(1 Samuel 4:8 shows how God's name was declared throughout all the earth...

Woe unto us [Philistines]! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness.)

Ecclesiastes 9:3

...the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Ecclesiastes 7:13

Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

2 Chronicles 24:19

Yet he sent prophets to them, to bring them again unto the LORD; and they testified against them: but they would not give ear.

Ecclesiastes 8:8

There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

2 Timothy 2

²⁴And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

²⁵In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

²⁶And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

---- Who is it up to to give repentance to the acknowledging of the truth ?

(James 4:12 - God is able to save and to destroy...)

and it says:

Isaiah 46:9-10

[i am] God, and there is none like me;

declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;

When does God declare "the things that are not yet done" ?

Ezekiel 11:5

...for [the LORD] knows the things that come into your mind, every one of them.

Proverbs 20:24

Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Proverbs 19:21

There are many [plans] in a man's heart; nevertheless the [plan] of the LORD, that shall stand.

- Strong's Hebrew and Greek dictionaries

Psalm 139

²*Thou* knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off;

³Thou searchest out my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways;

⁴For there is not yet a word on my tongue, [but] lo, O Jehovah, thou knowest it altogether.

Romans 9

¹⁰And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

¹¹(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Daniel 5:23

In God's hand is:

your breath,

and all your ways...

Acts 17:25-26

God giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Acts 13:48

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Psalm 65:4

Blessed is the man whom [God] choosest, and causest to approach unto [Him], that he may dwell in [God's] courts:

John 6:65

And [Jesus] said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Matthew 24:31

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

the angels shall gather who together?

Isaiah 63:17

O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?

who makes us to err from The LORD's ways ?

Edited November 5, 2011 by Ephesians__6_24

[Eccl12v13]

"It does not say that there were people that was prepared and ready to go into the kingdom."

"prepared and ready to go into the kingdom"

Are you saying that you believe that even before we are born that Jesus already knows whether we will be in His kingdom or not, thus He knows who will NOT be in His kingdom?

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[Guest shiloh357]

"It does not say that there were people that was prepared and ready to go into the kingdom."

"prepared and ready to go into the kingdom"

Are you saying that you believe that even before we are born that Jesus already knows whether we will be in His kingdom or not, thus He knows who will NOT be in His kingdom?

.

Jesus is God and thus is all-knowing. Jesus knows who will accept the Gospel and who will reject it. He knew it before the world was created.