John Piper - Why I abominate the prosperity gospel

[Botz]

Thanks for that Dennis...always good to hear some solid personal experience.

I have also heard hundreds of sermons, and known a fair few Pastors and some good and some bad teaching.

My chief concern at the moment is the infiltration of various things within Christian communities that actively

work against the Spirit, but wear the sheep-skins of Scripture...it seems to me there is an enemy within

that we are just not waking up to, and hardly any leaders have the necessary discernment or the self-belief

to do anything about it...anyone who tries is like a voice in the wilderness crying 'make straight the ways of the L-rd'.

A friend suggested there was nothing that could be done, and that we should just not worry about it and focus

on more important things...but when I read Paul and John and Jude, I see them calling out the imposters

and striving for a Community that is free of false doctrine from false brethren.

I have heard several testimonies about people who named it and claimed it and were healed...but I argue

that it was the sovereign grace of G-d, and that to believe one is healed despite evidence to the contrary

is not a biblical concept and is the equivalent of the appearance of an Angel of Light bringing a teaching

that is not found in Scripture.

It really seems these days we live in are going to bear the hall-mark of gross deception, false signs and

wonders, false teachers, false messiahs, lies and confusion every where, and people unable to grasp

or abide sound doctrine...it is not a comforting thought and brings to mind the Scripture more clearly

than ever about working out ones own salvation with fear and trembling.

Perplexed but not down-hearted. Botz

[OldShep]

This may be of interest:

A Statement on the Prosperity Gospel

Lausanne Theology Working Group

From the Africa Chapter - Lausanne Theology Working Group

At its consultations in Akropong, Ghana, 8-9 October, 2008 and 1-4 September 2009

http://www.lausanne.org/en/documents/all/twg/1099-a-statement-on-the-prosperity-gospel.html

Dennis

[Botz]

Yes, very helpful again Dennis.

I have taken the liberty to post point 10 which is really a summary or all the points mentioned, but I also recognise that their statements are open ended

and have room for further discussion and argument. One of the difficulties with this sort of doctrine and associated doctrines, is that they can hide to

some degree like tares amongst wheat, especially if they are embraced, accepted, adopted and promulgated by those in spiritual authority, who then

teach them as biblical to those in their charge.

Good leaders are not immune from deception...in fact from my studies of the Prosperity Gospel so far, I suspect that their ministries (wheat fields) are especially

vulnerable and targetted by the enemy in which to sow tares....the Devil is not going to target ministries that are ineffective.

Paul says we are not ignorant of his devices/methods...but unfortunately it seems many these days are extremely ignorant, and it is something I feel for

myself before G-d is necessary to pursue.

Here is the final summary.

10.We know that God sometimes puts leaders in positions of significant public fame and influence.

However, there are aspects of the lifestyle and behaviour of many preachers of Prosperity Teaching that we find deplorable, unethical, and frankly idolatrous (to the god of Mammon), and in some of these respects we may be called upon to identify and reject such things as the marks of false prophets, according to the standards of the Bible. These include:

•Flamboyant and excessive wealth and extravagant lifestyles

•Unethical and manipulative techniques

•Constant emphasis on money, as if it were a supreme good – which is mammon

•Replacing the traditional call to repentance and faith with a call to give money

•Covetousness which is idolatry

•Living and behaving in ways that are utterly inconsistent with either the example of Jesus or the pattern of discipleship that he taught.

•Ignoring or contradicting the strong New Testament teaching on the dangers of wealth and the idolatrous sin of greed

•Failure to preach the word of God in a way that feeds the flock of Christ

•Failure to preach the whole gospel message of sin, repentance, faith and eternal hope.

•Failure to preach the whole counsel of God, but replacing it with what people want to hear.

•Replacing time for evangelism with fund raising events and appeals

[Guest]

A few other things I hate about the prosperity gospel based on experience with some (not all!) who come out of it the hard way:

1. The burned out human wreckage it leaves behind when life proves it wrong; i.e. in this economy when a person looses their job, house, car, etc.

2. Those who experience #1 are almost always bitter and angry at God -- not the prosperity preachers who left them high and dry, took their money, then offered no help. I have had to dodge punches a time or two talking to some of these folks. They (or at least many) don't want to hear anything about God or the Gospel after what they've been through! Can you say, "This makes it really hard to witness?"

3. Those who are sick, some with terminal diseases, who are made to feel its their fault because they don't have "enough faith." That is beyond abominable to me.

4. Trying to get the point across to folks who in some cases have been through all of the above that they still need Christ . . . that they were lied to and mislead and they still need the real gospel.

[Botz]

What Walla says are also true as far as I can tell.

My greatest fear...and it is a fear born out of a gradual realisation...is that the Body of Messiah has been terribly compromised mostly due to a lack of discernment,

poor leadership, the desire to see the miraculous more than knowing G-d, and the media onslaught that has brought a deceptive mixture of the Gospel into our

living-rooms on TV channels, radio and the internet.

Wolves in sheeps clothing for all intents and purposes look like other sheep until you get up close and have a proper look at them...in other words when preachers

mention Jesus, the Holy Spirit and other Biblical subjects one is inclined to think from the noises they make, that they are genuine...and half the problem is that

90% of what they say might well be true, and contain solid teaching...but the subtlety is that the 90% then gets you off guard, and before you know it you are

taking in the 10% that is wholly unbiblical ....without even a second thought..that is scary.

I am beginning to wonder a number of things, not least if the greatest threat to the Body doesn't come from Islam, Atheism or apathy...but is from INFILTRATION

and the rotteness is within...tares sown in the wheat-field. Also if this great deception isn't a prophetic indicator to the times we live in, and that it goes to prove

that the time is short, and the return of the L-rd gets closer with each passing day.

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

I have bolded several words that emphasize a certain pattern that should set of the alarm bells when seen in the flesh.

[OneLight]

I was scanning the channels and came across a telethon that has been going on for at least a week now. Each time I stop to see what is on, I hear promises for different people to everyone watching that God will repay the viewers 100 fold what they pledge, which is usually followed with a "word" about how money will flow their way in the coming year. This is what makes me sick.

[Guest]

I was scanning the channels and came across a telethon that has been going on for at least a week now. Each time I stop to see what is on, I hear promises for different people to everyone watching that God will repay the viewers 100 fold what they pledge, which is usually followed with a "word" about how money will flow their way in the coming year. This is what makes me sick.

I usually refer to those as beg-athons because after they beg for more money they trot out all the old prosperity "promises" and messages. "You'll have so much it'll be coming out of your ears!" . . . lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, pride of life. And on it goes.

Yeah, it makes me sick too.

[Guest]

.... I am beginning to wonder a number of things, not least if the greatest threat to the Body doesn't come from Islam, Atheism or apathy...

but is from INFILTRATION

and the rotteness is within...tares sown in the wheat-field.

Also if this great deception isn't a prophetic indicator to the times we live in,

and that it goes to prove that the time is short,

and the return of the L-rd gets closer

with each passing day.

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

I have bolded several words that emphasize a certain pattern that should set of the alarm bells when seen in the flesh.

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Luke 16:13

[Botz]

Sounds like Christian Outreach Center.

I realise that there are a huge variety of Christian Communities/congregations that have absorbed some of these teachings, but are not trying to deceive anyone, and as you say, fruit is evident....my concern is what do we try and do about it if it is another Gospel as John Piper insists it is, and so do many others...how can we strongly oppose something from within...and how is it that many people in leadership seem blind to what is happening and demonstrate a complete lack of discernment...but in other areas they are outstanding. I can't work it all out and it grieves me.

Honestly brother? I think they become focused on one aspect that you brought up: Fruit. They see fruit being produced and they think that the end justifies the means. Fruit is good, but fruit is never supposed to be about numbers, and is the fruit they see being produced lasting fruit, or momentary? Real fruit lasts and has changing effects on everyones lives permanently. Flash-in-the-pan fruit means big numbers that drop by the wayside in a relatively short time just like the Parable of the Sower tells us will happen.

I know this will sadden you but if you are a lone voice, you will not be able to oppose it. A few weeks ago my wife and I finally made the heart-wrenching decision to leave our church. It has hurt both of us badly but we both knew there were some things simply not right about the church and honestly, she sensed it much longer than I did and pretty much remained slent about it for my sake. The things I fought against, I could make no headway on. The flood resulted in us not having church for a couple of months and then a pastor who traveled from elsewhere and only emphasised tongues every time he spoke. Now the pastor and his wife are living in the church while the 'future' pastor who holds no credentials yet and his family live in the parsonage. Odd, because they already had a house. There were too many things obviously not right for me to be part of it anymore. And I fought against a couple of issues I knew were not right for a couple of years to no avail. Errant teaching and attitudes are almost impossible to combat if the people involved will not at least entertain the possibility that error could exist.

Hi Cobalt,

Where I am is not a very large Fellowship...less than 50, it is an out-planting from a congregation about 15 miles away, but is gradually getting established.

There is a lot of good fruit amongst us, and the Pastor and his wife are honest, bold, loving and faithful.....but they have succumbed to teachings from Kenneth

Copeland ministries, and there is a constant emphasis on planting monetary seeds and getting earthly rewards, combined with name it and claim it prayers.

They are not money grabbers in any way whatsoever, they have jobs and don't take a cent for themselves.

I realise it might be very hard to see them change from their current position, but of all leaders that I have known over the years, I believe their hearts are tender

enough to receive a revelation from the Holy Ghost concerning these things....so I believe part of my purpose as their friend and member of that community is to

pray that G-d will reveal His truth to them, and help them see some of the error they have fed upon. Fortunately I am not alone on this issue, as one of my best

friends and his wife are also concerned.

I have never found a perfect congregation or assembly of the righteous...and at the moment there would be little value in leaving when so many other things are

very faith-building, and the love of Jesus amongst us all is palpable...I really treasure my brethren, and believe that there will come a time when these tares

that have been sown in their lives will be uprooted through the anointing of the Holy Ghost.

I believe every situation is different, and in many cases like yours for example, people are left with no choice but to reluctantly leave...I had to do that years

ago when the Pastor literally got power hungry and thought he was some sort of Dictator...the devastation that followed touched around 200 peoples lives

and showed me how much Satan targets leaders in so many ways...especially with pride and power.

Kind regards. Botz

[Botz]

I got saved in a prosperity gospel type church. They had a lot of fruit, I saw a lot of people get saved despite the doctrine. If there is any comfort for you Botz, it is that He will not lose one of His own, and it is possible, and it happens, that people move from the shallowness of the prosperity gospel to the wonderful depth of His Word.

That's a very good point. Jesus is bigger than their errors, and if these churches make it easier from some people to consider Christ, then perhaps that's a good thing.

I think it is by the grace of G-d that people continue to come to know Jesus in these places...but I am sure there will be a reckoning as the errors being taught seem to be

infiltrating almost every non-denominal congregation because of lack of discernment, and because the errors are hidden amongst some good solid biblical

teaching....it is because of the subtlety or chameleon appearance that they have gained such ground....it is time to fight back against these errors.