Paul was Pre-Trib

[goldust59]

There are angels mentioned in Revelation that are clothed in white garments. Rev 15:6~ And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

I have questions about their identity though & will have to look into that a bit.

[Littlelambseativy]

I never said that angels are not in the presence of the Father I said that nowhere in the Bible does it ever mention that angels sit in God's presence. It says that they are around the throne. They are messengers and in Michael's case a warrior for Israel others are ministering spirits.

My point in pointing out that the 24 elders were seated around the throne of God is that this was after the rapture and all other events such as the 7 seal on the scroll being opened by the Lamb were again after the rapture. Otherwise they could not be seated beside the throne or robed in white garments.

As for Satan, he is no longer Lucifer since he is a fallen angel. He was cast out of heaven but he still has access to the Father's throne to beg to torment the saints as he did with Job.

Satan remains an angel, fallen or otherwise he has not changed his nature the one God gave him, still an angel just fallen and no longer redeemable. Who is in the council of God in Job and Psalms? it cannot be men as we cannot abide in Gods presence in our human form and we know that the resurrection has not taken place yet so no man, changed or otherwise is in the presence of God.

It seems everything that you believe in Rev. and elsewhere seems to rely on the idea of a pre-trib rapture, how do you account for the elect still being on earth all the way till the bowl judgments? till the last shofar is blown? We have the seven seals, elect are present then, we see in Rev. 9 the saints are still on earth they are getting sealed. It is only after the seventh shofar has been blown that Yeshua comes again and angels gather the elect. What about when the two witnesses who are revealed in Rev. 11, there is still believers living in Jerusalem and God tells them to flee when the stuff starts happening. So how can these be the elect in white robes if they have yet to even see the return of the Messiah and be gathered to Him? When God pours out the last seven plagues, the bowl judgments the elect will have just been taken to meet our Messiah.

shalom,

Mizz

Of the saints to whom you refer they are the 'tribulation saints' those who come through the tribulation and do not accept the mark of the beast and are killed for their belief. They are the ones who did not believe and missed the rapture. As many have said - the greatest revival will be after the rapture because those who heard the truth and did not accept it will grieve once the rapture has taken place because of their folly. These are the one who will come out of the tribulation and will cry for their blood to be avenged. These are not the ones who are sealed by the Holy Spirit. That stops at the rapture. The Holy Spirit still works during the tribulation but does not seal.

As to Satan, he is no longer the highest ranking cherub covered with jewels and in the presence of the Father. Sin has a way of changing your very appearance. Hate changes the face. Satan is full of hate for Jesus Christ who he tried in vain to stop from fulfilling the Father's plan of salvation for man and now he has a great deal of hate for the ones who are sealed by the Holy Spirit - those who are called by the name of Christ and washed in His blood. Hate changes a being. He is not the angel that you think he is. He is only allowed into the Father's presence to contend for the souls of men. He has control of the each. What do you see in the face of a person who hates - it is not a face you would want in your friend or loved one. You are confusing ministering angels who love and do the Father's bidding with the one who hates the Son of God.

[goldust59]

I never said that angels are not in the presence of the Father I said that nowhere in the Bible does it ever mention that angels sit in God's presence. It says that they are around the throne. They are messengers and in Michael's case a warrior for Israel others are ministering spirits.

My point in pointing out that the 24 elders were seated around the throne of God is that this was after the rapture and all other events such as the 7 seal on the scroll being opened by the Lamb were again after the rapture. Otherwise they could not be seated beside the throne or robed in white garments.

As for Satan, he is no longer Lucifer since he is a fallen angel. He was cast out of heaven but he still has access to the Father's throne to beg to torment the saints as he did with Job.

Satan remains an angel, fallen or otherwise he has not changed his nature the one God gave him, still an angel just fallen and no longer redeemable. Who is in the council of God in Job and Psalms? it cannot be men as we cannot abide in Gods presence in our human form and we know that the resurrection has not taken place yet so no man, changed or otherwise is in the presence of God.

It seems everything that you believe in Rev. and elsewhere seems to rely on the idea of a pre-trib rapture, how do you account for the elect still being on earth all the way till the bowl judgments? till the last shofar is blown? We have the seven seals, elect are present then, we see in Rev. 9 the saints are still on earth they are getting sealed. It is only after the seventh shofar has been blown that Yeshua comes again and angels gather the elect. What about when the two witnesses who are revealed in Rev. 11, there is still believers living in Jerusalem and God tells them to flee when the stuff starts happening. So how can these be the elect in white robes if they have yet to even see the return of the Messiah and be gathered to Him? When God pours out the last seven plagues, the bowl judgments the elect will have just been taken to meet our Messiah.

shalom,

Mizz

Of the saints to whom you refer they are the 'tribulation saints' those who come through the tribulation and do not accept the mark of the beast and are killed for their belief. They are the ones who did not believe and missed the rapture. As many have said - the greatest revival will be after the rapture because those who heard the truth and did not accept it will grieve once the rapture has taken place because of their folly. These are the one who will come out of the tribulation and will cry for their blood to be avenged. These are not the ones who are sealed by the Holy Spirit. That stops at the rapture. The Holy Spirit still works during the tribulation but does not seal.

As to Satan, he is no longer the highest ranking cherub covered with jewels and in the presence of the Father. Sin has a way of changing your very appearance. Hate changes the face. Satan is full of hate for Jesus Christ who he tried in vain to stop from fulfilling the Father's plan of salvation for man and now he has a great deal of hate for the ones who are sealed by the Holy Spirit - those who are called by the name of Christ and washed in His blood. Hate changes a being. He is not the angel that you think he is. He is only allowed into the Father's presence to contend for the souls of men. He has control of the each. What do you see in the face of a person who hates - it is not a face you would want in your friend or loved one. You are confusing ministering angels who love and do the Father's bidding with the one who hates the Son of God.

Can you give scripture that support the claim that the Holy Spirit doesn't seal anyone during the tribulation please ?

[mizzdy]

I never said that angels are not in the presence of the Father I said that nowhere in the Bible does it ever mention that angels sit in God's presence. It says that they are around the throne. They are messengers and in Michael's case a warrior for Israel others are ministering spirits.

My point in pointing out that the 24 elders were seated around the throne of God is that this was after the rapture and all other events such as the 7 seal on the scroll being opened by the Lamb were again after the rapture. Otherwise they could not be seated beside the throne or robed in white garments.

As for Satan, he is no longer Lucifer since he is a fallen angel. He was cast out of heaven but he still has access to the Father's throne to beg to torment the saints as he did with Job.

Satan remains an angel, fallen or otherwise he has not changed his nature the one God gave him, still an angel just fallen and no longer redeemable. Who is in the council of God in Job and Psalms? it cannot be men as we cannot abide in Gods presence in our human form and we know that the resurrection has not taken place yet so no man, changed or otherwise is in the presence of God.

It seems everything that you believe in Rev. and elsewhere seems to rely on the idea of a pre-trib rapture, how do you account for the elect still being on earth all the way till the bowl judgments? till the last shofar is blown? We have the seven seals, elect are present then, we see in Rev. 9 the saints are still on earth they are getting sealed. It is only after the seventh shofar has been blown that Yeshua comes again and angels gather the elect. What about when the two witnesses who are revealed in Rev. 11, there is still believers living in Jerusalem and God tells them to flee when the stuff starts happening. So how can these be the elect in white robes if they have yet to even see the return of the Messiah and be gathered to Him? When God pours out the last seven plagues, the bowl judgments the elect will have just been taken to meet our Messiah.

shalom,

Mizz

Of the saints to whom you refer they are the 'tribulation saints' those who come through the tribulation and do not accept the mark of the beast and are killed for their belief. They are the ones who did not believe and missed the rapture. As many have said - the greatest revival will be after the rapture because those who heard the truth and did not accept it will grieve once the rapture has taken place because of their folly. These are the one who will come out of the tribulation and will cry for their blood to be avenged. These are not the ones who are sealed by the Holy Spirit. That stops at the rapture. The Holy Spirit still works during the tribulation but does not seal.

As to Satan, he is no longer the highest ranking cherub covered with jewels and in the presence of the Father. Sin has a way of changing your very appearance. Hate changes the face. Satan is full of hate for Jesus Christ who he tried in vain to stop from fulfilling the Father's plan of salvation for man and now he has a great deal of hate for the ones who are sealed by the Holy Spirit - those who are called by the name of Christ and washed in His blood. Hate changes a being. He is not the angel that you think he is. He is only allowed into the Father's presence to contend for the souls of men. He has control of the each. What do you see in the face of a person who hates - it is not a face you would want in your friend or loved one. You are confusing ministering angels who love and do the Father's bidding with the one who hates the Son of God.

Saints missing the rapture, thats a new one for the books, that is also stretching the scriptures to the breaking point also. It is the angels of God who seals the elect not the Spirit. Theres a lot of dancing around with scriptures to prove a pretrib rapture, and well it just doesn't add up with scripture at all, we are not appointed to go through Gods wrath and that happens immediately after He returns and the angels have gather the elect from the four corners of the earth. But for those who are forever stuck in the idea that God is going to take away christians before the great tribulation theres no amount of scriptures that will change ones mind. I would suggest an end depth study into the feasts of God, after all most believe He fulfilled the spring feasts but ignore the fall ones altogether.

Satan is fallen, still the god of this world, still accusing us to God, still the same as he was when he decided to tempt Eve. I have known a lot of men and woman in my life who are hate just about every single thing in thier life, their hearts are stony and their actions match but I would not say their faces have turned to ugliness, matter of fact one of the prettiest woman I have known is one of the meanest, nastiest woman I have ever known. So the theory that satan turned ugly and evil looking is false. I am not confusing anything at all, God has a counsel, satan was present in that counsel according to Job 1:6-7 'Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." So yes satan is still there, was in the divine council of God's with the other angels.

shalom,

Mizz

[NTMicaiah]

You are correct God didn't appoint man to wrath.Man was appointed to walk with God and till the garden, until Adam and Eve sinned.Then man had to have a redeemer to pay our sin debt,that redeemer was Jesus Christ.If we accept Christ as our savior we are assured eternal life,but that has nothing to do with us going through the tribulation.

You did not answer the question, so I will try again:

Since you believe that the Church will have to go through the Tribulation, please show me where we, as believers, are ever subjected to God's wrath.

While God poured out wrath on Egypt one section of the land was spared from it, the sections where His people were. Among them not even a dog barked. One noteworthy parallel is that, during the tribulation, scorpions will sting those who are not sealed. Perhaps the main thing that saved people will endure during the tribulation period is the wrath of man. Perhaps most of God's people will have been slaughtered by the lost before the middle of the tribulation. God gives the lost blood to drink because they liked shedding it so well.

There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil. Since this was promised in the first century, how will it be fulfilled upon those who are not on earth during the tribulation period? It will be fulfilled in the Lake of Fire.

[Littlelambseativy]

You are correct God didn't appoint man to wrath.Man was appointed to walk with God and till the garden, until Adam and Eve sinned.Then man had to have a redeemer to pay our sin debt,that redeemer was Jesus Christ.If we accept Christ as our savior we are assured eternal life,but that has nothing to do with us going through the tribulation.

You did not answer the question, so I will try again:

Since you believe that the Church will have to go through the Tribulation, please show me where we, as believers, are ever subjected to God's wrath.

While God poured out wrath on Egypt one section of the land was spared from it, the sections where His people were. Among them not even a dog barked. One noteworthy parallel is that, during the tribulation, scorpions will sting those who are not sealed. Perhaps the main thing that saved people will endure during the tribulation period is the wrath of man. Perhaps most of God's people will have been slaughtered by the lost before the middle of the tribulation. God gives the lost blood to drink because they liked shedding it so well.

There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil. Since this was promised in the first century, how will it be fulfilled upon those who are not on earth during the tribulation period? It will be fulfilled in the Lake of Fire.

Welcome to Worthy NTMicaiah eh!! Introduce yourself in Worthy Welcome!!

[NTMicaiah]

Personally, I believe it starts in Revelation 6. Who else but God can perform the events?

Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV)

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

Here are the testimony of those who witnessed the events, understanding what these events truly are.

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Is it the wrath that you see starting in Rev. 6? If so how do account for the scriptures further on in Rev. that show the elect still here? In Rev. 18 we have judgment on Babylon the great, which is the wrath of God. It is also the time the righteous and wicked get their rewards. God sends His angels to serve His will, we read everywhere in Rev. that angels are doing these things, of course its by His power alone that anything is done. I see things happening on a time line, wrapped up in the fall feast, I believe, are the ways to understand the end of the age. Not saying I know more than anyone else so please dont think that. I have come to see the whole plan of God wrapped up in the feasts, its truly interesting to read prophecy from a hebraic way of thinking. But I don't take myself too seriously regarding it all its interesting to talk about it all isnt it though.

shalom,

Mizz

I believe when Paul spoke of being "caught up", this event will be sometime toward the very end of the tribulation, if not at the very end. I also believe that we will be protected through Gods wrath, not taken out of it. I can think of no better testimony of His love and protection for His people then this.

I am not familiar with the festivals as most are, so I do not know when it will begin or end. I have been studying the sequence of how things appear to come about. I too enjoy discussing the end time events, though I will be among the first to admit that I don't hold all the answers. I can only go as scripture leads me.

God Bless Sis.

The Bible speaks of people who are in darkness and who times will overtake as a thief in the night. The Bible also speaks of believers as not being in this category. The times will not overtake us as a thief in the night because we have the program. When you go somewhere and they call out "Programs, get your Programs here" a person can purchase a program and know more about what is going on. Are we sure that when the Bible says that all are fleeing from the wrath of God that it means all people without exception? When the Bible tells us that everyone went out to be baptized by John are we to conclude that 100% of the people, every single human being in that area went and was baptized?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts,

NTMicaiah

Edited November 13, 2011 by NTMicaiah

[OneLight]

Personally, I believe it starts in Revelation 6. Who else but God can perform the events?

Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV)

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

Here are the testimony of those who witnessed the events, understanding what these events truly are.

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Is it the wrath that you see starting in Rev. 6? If so how do account for the scriptures further on in Rev. that show the elect still here? In Rev. 18 we have judgment on Babylon the great, which is the wrath of God. It is also the time the righteous and wicked get their rewards. God sends His angels to serve His will, we read everywhere in Rev. that angels are doing these things, of course its by His power alone that anything is done. I see things happening on a time line, wrapped up in the fall feast, I believe, are the ways to understand the end of the age. Not saying I know more than anyone else so please dont think that. I have come to see the whole plan of God wrapped up in the feasts, its truly interesting to read prophecy from a hebraic way of thinking. But I don't take myself too seriously regarding it all its interesting to talk about it all isnt it though.

shalom,

Mizz

I believe when Paul spoke of being "caught up", this event will be sometime toward the very end of the tribulation, if not at the very end. I also believe that we will be protected through Gods wrath, not taken out of it. I can think of no better testimony of His love and protection for His people then this.

I am not familiar with the festivals as most are, so I do not know when it will begin or end. I have been studying the sequence of how things appear to come about. I too enjoy discussing the end time events, though I will be among the first to admit that I don't hold all the answers. I can only go as scripture leads me.

God Bless Sis.

The Bible speaks of people who are in darkness and who times will overtake as a thief in the night. The Bible also speaks of believers as not being in this category. The times will not overtake us as a thief in the night because we have the program. When you go somewhere and they call out "Programs, get your Programs here" a person can purchase a program and know more about what is going on. Are we sure that when the Bible says that all are fleeing from the wrath of God that it means all people without exception? When the Bible tells us that everyone went out to be baptized by John are we to conclude that 100% of the people, every single human being in that area went and was baptized?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts,

NTMicaiah

Are you addressing my post(s)? If so, please point out where I addressed what you are addressing in your reply. I am having a hard time following your reply from what I posted.

[mizzdy]

Personally, I believe it starts in Revelation 6. Who else but God can perform the events?

Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV)

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

Here are the testimony of those who witnessed the events, understanding what these events truly are.

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Is it the wrath that you see starting in Rev. 6? If so how do account for the scriptures further on in Rev. that show the elect still here? In Rev. 18 we have judgment on Babylon the great, which is the wrath of God. It is also the time the righteous and wicked get their rewards. God sends His angels to serve His will, we read everywhere in Rev. that angels are doing these things, of course its by His power alone that anything is done. I see things happening on a time line, wrapped up in the fall feast, I believe, are the ways to understand the end of the age. Not saying I know more than anyone else so please dont think that. I have come to see the whole plan of God wrapped up in the feasts, its truly interesting to read prophecy from a hebraic way of thinking. But I don't take myself too seriously regarding it all its interesting to talk about it all isnt it though.

shalom,

Mizz

I believe when Paul spoke of being "caught up", this event will be sometime toward the very end of the tribulation, if not at the very end. I also believe that we will be protected through Gods wrath, not taken out of it. I can think of no better testimony of His love and protection for His people then this.

I am not familiar with the festivals as most are, so I do not know when it will begin or end. I have been studying the sequence of how things appear to come about. I too enjoy discussing the end time events, though I will be among the first to admit that I don't hold all the answers. I can only go as scripture leads me.

God Bless Sis.

The Bible speaks of people who are in darkness and who times will overtake as a thief in the night. The Bible also speaks of believers as not being in this category. The times will not overtake us as a thief in the night because we have the program. When you go somewhere and they call out "Programs, get your Programs here" a person can purchase a program and know more about what is going on. Are we sure that when the Bible says that all are fleeing from the wrath of God that it means all people without exception? When the Bible tells us that everyone went out to be baptized by John are we to conclude that 100% of the people, every single human being in that area went and was baptized?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts,

NTMicaiah

I like that, 'we have the program'. True, we who know Him and know the signs of His coming will not be in the dark about it, it is only those who continue to walk in the dark who will not see the signs of His coming and be caught unaware. The thief in the night is also tied to the idea of the watchman being caught asleep at his watch, he was set on fire and ended up running about half naked for all to see.

shalom,

Mizz

[joi]

There was a time I argued the timing of the rapture. Not any more. It will happen at God's appointed time

and my actions are not to change because of when it does/does not happen. That said, I have read some

interesting points of view in this thread. Knowledge increasing. . . perhaps.

As for me, I would love to see and hear the two witnesses that God has prepared for those tribulation times, but am ready to take what God has for me. Don't these two just stir your curiosity? God so wonderfully taught through His prophets of old, and I can only try to imagine what He has for these two men to say to mankind.

Revelation 11:3

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.