The book of Hebrews

[JohnD]

I think it would be good to put a comma here on the book of Hebrews to go into the witness of Yeshua (Jesus) in the Hebrew Bible (tanakh) our Old Testament... in keeping with the spirit of the book of Hebrews...

For, the Old Testament was all the Bible there was at the time of the first century CE.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Guess what? "All scripture" is only the Old Testament at the time Paul wrote this. The New Testament was yet to come.

Acts 17:11 (KJV)

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

You guessed it. Old Testament.

So, if for no other reason to buttress your own faith by being able to prove the claims that Christianity is in the Old Testament, we should all be familiar with the passages... let alone be able to present the Gospel to a Jewish person using only the Old Testament (since they give no credence to the New Testament).

And rather than this being a lecture series... I invite you all to input the scriptures from the Old Testament that you know point to Jesus (Yeshua)... and maybe we can have some lively discussions going through the typical Hebrew objections (which DO have answers that prove Jesus is the Messiah, btw), and perhaps we can all grow from this in our walk and our strength of witness.

I'll begin with one passage.

Exodus 17 (KJV)

1 And all the congregation of the children of Israel journeyed from the wilderness of Sin, after their journeys, according to the commandment of the LORD, and pitched in Rephidim: and there was no water for the people to drink.

2 Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?

3 And the people thirsted there for water; and the people murmured against Moses, and said, Wherefore is this that thou hast brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our cattle with thirst?

4 And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, What shall I do unto this people? they be almost ready to stone me.

5 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go on before the people, and take with thee of the elders of Israel; and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go.

6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

7 And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?

8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim.

9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.

10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill.

11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.

12 But Moses’ hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.

13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:

16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

Jesus Christ was crucified on a hill top overlooking the holy city with two on either side of him.

[Jasher]

I agreed with Dr. Barnhouse's assessment up to the point of his seeing Christianity as an end to being Hebrew.

So, yes, it is a book written to the Hebrew to tell the Hebrews to stop being Old Covenant Hebrews and to become New Covenant Hebrews.

And while we must insist upon the criteria of interpretation you spelled out, Jasher, we must not be willing to imprison the text in just that setting (meaning it has no other application to anyone else or could not contain prophetic elements as do all texts of scripture).

That's the idea - first determine what it meant to the people to whom it was originally written then take the underlying principles and apply them to any point in history - including today of course. Some things in scripture are of a local interpretation, but most are not. The same is true of the symbolic book of Revelation. To understand its message we have to search history and the OT to determine what it meant to those to whom it was written. Once we discover what it meant to the first century Christians and all of them living under the Roman empire - then we can apply its principles and teaching to today. Today it is a common practice to move all of prophesy to yet our future, which is a serious error. And so this practice produces endless speculations - ll of which never come true. I guess it is fun to speculate but one will never understand the message of the writer.

I agree for example when the book of Hebrews speaks of continuing to sin no other sacrifice is left pertains specifically to the rejection of Messiah in preference to the Mosaic covenant... meaning if you continue to reject the salvation of Messiah for a past covenant there is no salvation except in Messiah and the New Covenant. And in the context of scripture overall (Romans 11:23 specifically) this is not an irreversible predicament.

But thank you for pointing out what you did, Jash.

I think you are on the right track.

[Guest]

I Take It ALL Personally

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:15-17

See

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Yes?

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:169

See

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

Yes?

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

See....

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4

Yes~!

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13

[Openly Curious]

We must also remind ourselves that Jesus Christ has a second a second nature. The Father does not. The Spirit does not. So when we see God AND Jesus Christ this in no way diminishes the deity of Christ... rather it establishes the uniqueness of Christ the God man.

Could you elaborate and clarify what you mean when you said, Jesus Christ had a second nature. What were those two natures?

[JohnD]

We must also remind ourselves that Jesus Christ has a second a second nature. The Father does not. The Spirit does not. So when we see God AND Jesus Christ this in no way diminishes the deity of Christ... rather it establishes the uniqueness of Christ the God man.

Could you elaborate and clarify what you mean when you said, Jesus Christ had a second nature. What were those two natures?

Sorry so long in answering...

Certainly.

John 1:1-3 (NASB95)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14 (NASB95)

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God the Word became flesh.

Two natures: God and human.

And Philippians 2:6 (in the Greek) indicate he is both at the same time in the phrase morphe theos huparchon (never ceasing to be God... he took upon himself the form of a man).

1 Corinthians 15:45 (NASB95)

45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

"last adam" means he is the last progenitor and also that he has that same human nature Adam and Eve had before the fall. So Jesus Christ is indeed divine (God the Word in his Spirit) but he is definitely human in his flesh he is a man... a resurrected man, but a man nevertheless.

1 John 3:2 (NASB95)

2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

We will be resurrected / perfected as human beings as he is in his resurrection.

[Openly Curious]

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We must also remind ourselves that Jesus Christ has a second a second nature. The Father does not. The Spirit does not. So when we see God AND Jesus Christ this in no way diminishes the deity of Christ... rather it establishes the uniqueness of Christ the God man.

Could you elaborate and clarify what you mean when you said, Jesus Christ had a second nature. What were those two natures?

1 Corinthians 15:45 (NASB95)

45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

"last adam" means he is the last progenitor and also that he has that same human nature Adam and Eve had before the fall. So Jesus Christ is indeed divine (God the Word in his Spirit) but he is definitely human in his flesh he is a man... a resurrected man, but a man nevertheless.

Christ did not inherit the nature of Adam for Adam was not the father of Christ. If Christ would have inherited the sin nature of Adam he would have been subjected to sin and he wasn't. Jesus was that one spotless lamb as the sacrifice given for the sins of the world for he had no sin neither was guile found in his mouth.

It is true that, "the Word became flesh and dwelt amoung us"(John 1:14). But the first man Adam had a sin nature resulting from the disobedience that took place in the garden of Eden. God gave him warning of what the con-sequences would be if he ate from the forbidden tree the tree of the knowledge of good and evil(Genesis 2:15-17).

Adam fell from a state of innocence to a fallen sinful state and death came upon everyone born from that time up until the present . Since that time man because of disobedience was destined to die a physical death with no hope of a resurrection.

Adam was not the father of Jesus for he was not a descendant of Adam nor a partaker of sinful man. Eve was not the mother of Jesus for she was not a virgin . However Jesus was born from a virgin called Mary and the heavenly Father overshadowed her and she was with child from that moment the child being Jesus (Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-80, 2:1-40). Christ was born of a virgin named Mary and Adam was not the earthly father of Jesus.

Jesus did not have a second nature as you claim that Christ that he did but the Father and the Spirit do not have a second nature. If this were true then it would make the three persons in the trinity to work in contrast or against one another having no unity.

God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself and to claim Christ had two different natures is to say Christ died in vain. Christ was "holy" when he was born into this world unlike all the descendents of Adam. All of man- kind born from Adam were dead in their tresspasses and sins and were born "unholy" in the sight of God.

Again the nature of God's only begotten Son was "holy" as God the Father in heaven was the father of Jesus. The mother of Jesus was Mary a virgin who had never been with a man before and those born again will inherit everlasting life. Adam and Eve were the first father and mother on earth both of them fell in the garden and as such both of them had a sinful nature to contend with. When Adam fell in the garden death passed upon all men from that point onward and mankind is still being born with a sin nature having no hope of eternal life without Christ sacrifice.

Fallen man who disobeyed and sinned agaist God in the garden with no hope of eternal life (verses) God the Father who is without sin and is holy having the promise of everlasting life in his death on the cross. Then Eve who had been with a man Adam who wasn't a virgin and she also fell in the garden with Adam (verses)the virgin Mary who had never known or been with a man she was a virgin pure and innocent.

It is plain to see that Christ was not born from Adam nor was Eve his earthly mother and seeing God in this way does diminish the deity of Christ nor the Godhead because Christ is being brought down to the level of sinful mankind. It is just as plain to see that Jesus did not have an earthly father to have had an earthly father there would have been no redemption. God did become flesh and dwelt among us in the form of his Son but Jesus did not have a second sinful nature as Adam but he had the attributes of the heavenly Father.

[Ephesians__6_24]

Hebrews 1 (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

John 14:26 (KJV)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 (KJV)

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13 (KJV)

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by {together with} his Son...

...whom he hath appointed heir of all things by {the ground or reason by which something is or is not done} whom also he made the worlds;

Colossians 1:16-18 (KJV)

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

An example of this form of the word "by" or "through" would be the Trump family fortune was made BY or THROUGH Donald Sr. So the passage does not make Jesus just an agency of the creation but the Creator. Another way to put final clause in verse 2 is to say the one in the Godhead who created was Jesus.

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

Colossians 1:13-15 (KJV)

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Who is the VISIBLE image of the INVISIBLE God.

and upholding all things by the word of his power,

Colossians 1:17 (NIV)

17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

This verse seems to take theological steps backward by mentioning such a thing. We must remind ourselves that at the time of the writing of this book, the Bible was not fully recorded and canonized... thus human awareness of theological doctrine was in flux. It took the whole context of the entire Bible to realize even the elementary doctrines of theology. Remember John in Revelation was twice scolded for worshiping an angel (Revelation 19:10 / Revelation 22:9). Peter on the mount of Transfiguration wanted to build booths for Moses and Elijah in addition to Jesus (Matthew 17:4). He was in effect wanting to make three shrines or tabernacles in the honor of all three.

The passage serves the modern reader / student in that it supplements the doctrinal distinctions between God and angels and man and angels which is a vital thing to consider when we read passages like:

James 2:19 (NIV)

19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

This is not to elevate the beliefs of fallen angels to some magnificent point above humans as if to say how then can we inferior believers be saved??? No. What it means is they do not have a kinsman redeemer. Humanity does (1 Timothy 4:10 / 1 John 2:2) . Furthermore, angels were in their eternal state when they sinned. Man is in his temporal state and subject to death which avails redemption through resurrection. Angels cannot die. So we must consider these things when we see passages like this about angels in the Bible.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Notice in the verse it makes three paradigm shift statements: TODAY I have begotten thee / I WILL BE a Father to him / he WILL BE a Son to me... meaning that prior to that point none of the above was true. So the Eternal Son doctrine is proved false by scripture. God the Word is eternal and became the Son in the incarnation. But he was not the Son before the incarnation.

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Here we have the Father calling the Son God and the Father declared to be his God (in the humanity of Jesus) to further fulfill the office of Messiah which is an office of humility... so if he were his own God he would not qualify as our kinsman redeemer.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

This is still the Father speaking to the Son.

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Ecclesiastes 7

²⁴That which is far off, and exceeding deep, who can find it out?

1 Timothy 3:16

¹⁶And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[Openly Curious]

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1 Timothy 3:16

¹⁶And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Colossians 1:26 - 27....Even the "mystery" which hath been hid from ages and from generations but now is made manifest (revealed or made known) to his saints:

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this "mystery" among the Gentiles; "WHICH IS CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY:"

[~Clay]

We must also remind ourselves that Jesus Christ has a second nature. The Father does not. The Spirit does not. So when we see God AND Jesus Christ this in no way diminishes the deity of Christ... rather it establishes the uniqueness of Christ the God man.

Yes, but don't confuse the Trinitarian Son ("second person of the Godhead") with Jesus.

The Son has no second nature. He is only God. Always was. Always will be. And He does not change.

Jesus is the Son incarnate. He has both natures - the Theanthropic Being. The God-Man. Very God and Very Man.

But He didn't exist until the incarnation just over 2000 years ago.

peace

[JohnD]

We must also remind ourselves that Jesus Christ has a second nature. The Father does not. The Spirit does not. So when we see God AND Jesus Christ this in no way diminishes the deity of Christ... rather it establishes the uniqueness of Christ the God man.

Yes, but don't confuse the Trinitarian Son ("second person of the Godhead") with Jesus.

The Son has no second nature. He is only God. Always was. Always will be. And He does not change.

Jesus is the Son incarnate. He has both natures - the Theanthropic Being. The God-Man. Very God and Very Man.

But He didn't exist until the incarnation just over 2000 years ago.

peace

If you are referring to the eternal son doctrine, Clay, I would appreciate scriptures to support this view. There is no doubt the Spirit of Jesus preexisted the incarnation. God the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1 / John 1:14). But according to Hebrews 1:5 he became the Son only after that point which he took on the second nature of flesh which Philippians says in the Greek was done without any change in his deity "morphe theos huparchon." I have debated (I guess you'd call them scholars) on the eternal son doctrine being unbiblical... but if you have found scripture to the contrary I'd be happy to look into them with you.