The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[Guest Butero]

shiloh357, on 29 December 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

That is not how it works, Butero. Refusing to dress a certain way to please your preacher's demands cannot be lumped into the same pile with being a fornicator. In one case you are simply rejecting how your preacher interprets Scripture; that cannot be rightfully considered a rejection of Scripture. Being a fornicator requires you to violate the actual moral code of the Bible and to live in such a lifestyle only serves to prove that one's original profession of faith was not genuine.

I want to address the portion of your comments I placed in bold type. It can be considered a rejection of scripture. Deuteronomy 22:5 calls it an abomination for a woman to wear that which pertains to a man.

I agree entirely with that Scripture. It is an abomination. However, I stand in complete disagreement with your hyper-literal application of it.

There is a woman that lives nearby and she runs a farm. Her husband died and she is left to handle it. Now that is has turned cold she gets up and puts on a set of coveralls, boots and any other cold weather gear she needs and she heads out in the morning to milk and feed her cows, and other animals. Is she sinning? That is how people on farms dress. She has to get the work done and a dress is too impractical and she has no one else to do the work for her. The clothing she has to wear in order to handle certain chores on the farm are utilitarian in purpose. They not only keep her warm, but they protect her from injury, as well. To say that she is in violation of the Scriptures is ridiculous.

The women who worked in factories during WWII had to wear the same type of utilitarian clothing. Typical women's clothing would have inhibited production and provided a constant distraction from the job because of having to constantly stop to adjust dresses and skirts. So they wore pants and shirts and wore men's hats to keep the hair out of their faces so they could focus on the job. That is not what the Bible is talking about.

To anyone who is willing to be honest about Deut. 22:5, the spirit and purpose behind the commandment is as important and the printed words. Most, if not all, of the prohibitions God handed the Israelites were meant to distinguish them from the pagans. There was almost always a part of pagan worship or culture that God did not want the Israelites nor the Israelite priests participating in with respect to either the worship of other gods, or the use of pagan implements in the worship of Him.

At the very least, the commandment does speak to avoiding that which blurs the distinctions beween male and female, but implicit in the commdnent is far, far more than that. As I have said before, the commandents also serve as a behavioral paradigms. That means that a commandment not to murder implies that one should also avoid the deisre, the very thought of murdering another person. The commandment against adultery also implies that we should not allow ourselves to be put in a position where we would be tempted to be unfaithful. In the same way, the commandment not to wear the garments of the opposite sex must be understood in the light of the purpsoe and occasion of those commandments. The commandment speaks to the issue of transexual behavior which usually accompanies those who are active cross-dressers. That is spirit behind the commandment.

I understand what you are saying Shiloh. I was just explaining the other side, and why certain ministers say that it is sinful for women to wear pants. Now, let's look at your arguments for a moment. The woman on the farm. There was a time when women wore dresses working on a farm. My wife and I have been watching "Little House On The Prarie" reruns. That is based on true stories. I watched women work on farms, doing very hard work, wearing a dress. It can be done, and at one time, it was done. With regard to factory workers, you mentioned women having to adjust their clothes. I know of situations where women wore dresses in local factories, and got along just fine. They were Pentecostal.

Let's explore this a little further. Let's suppose that there was a job where a woman had to wear pants for safety. There was a woman who used to post here who was a welder. Even if that was the case, and someone wanted to argue that it was an absolute necessity she must wear pants on the job, that doesn't excuse it elsewhere. The only way one could justify it would be to argue along the lines of someone's mule falling into a hole on the Sabbath day, or David eating the Shew bread. In other words, you could say that there are some occassions where necessity dictates a violation must take place. I see these excuses used all the time, but they don't justify daily wearing of pants by women. I just picked up a load at a plant in Indiana. There is a Pentecostal woman working there who wears a skirt to work. It was real muddy outside, and she had overalls to throw on when she had to go out in the mud, but as soon as she got back inside, she took them back off.

Anyway Shiloh357, I understand your position. My main point isn't to change your mind, as I don't think that is possible. I am just defending those ministers who say it is sinful for women to wear pants, because I believe they are correct. Only Jesus can decide the eternal fate of any person, so I am not going to judge those women to hell anymore than I will judge every fornicator to hell. I wasn't given that job. Jesus will do the separating at the judgment.

[Guest shiloh357]

Of course,

And we should also stone our disobedient children

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."

I always like using this one, some parents may agree it should be still in effect lol

Actually, what this passage is referring to a gown child. This is not talking about stoning a kid because he doesn't keep his room clean or something. It is referring to a grown man who is basically lives a destructive lifestyle. It is disobedience to the degree that the man is a threat or peril to the community. His destructiveness may end up bringing harm to others and if he will not submit to parental authority, he is to be taken to the magistrates who will adminster punishment accordingly.

It would be similar to parents who might turn in thier own son or daughter to the police if they discovered their child was engaging in destructive behavior in our day and age (arson, drug trafficking, etc.).

[taylor30]

The scriptures are VERY clear that OSAS is true. Sometimes we choose not to believe it because it seems too easy and hurts our pride to not be able to earn our own salvation. Sometimes we choose not to believe it because we see others who claim to be saved but bear no fruit. We must be careful however not to interpret scripture by what we THINK IT SHOULD SAY, instead we must let scripture speak for itself. Christ made it very plain that he came to set people free and that he himself would pay the price that we couldn't. Many verses show that works have absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation. For the unsaved, they will be judged by their works. For the saved, they will be rewarded for their works. Salvation is a ONE TIME thing, when the Holy Spirit comes to live inside a temple of God and seals it forever. There is not a single verse that warns Christians about loosing salvation, but many that teach freedom in Christ. Do not let false teachings put fear in your heart. Scripture says " God has not given us a spirit of fear ".

[Guest Butero]

The scriptures are VERY clear that OSAS is true. Sometimes we choose not to believe it because it seems too easy and hurts our pride to not be able to earn our own salvation. Sometimes we choose not to believe it because we see others who claim to be saved but bear no fruit. We must be careful however not to interpret scripture by what we THINK IT SHOULD SAY, instead we must let scripture speak for itself. Christ made it very plain that he came to set people free and that he himself would pay the price that we couldn't. Many verses show that works have absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation. For the unsaved, they will be judged by their works. For the saved, they will be rewarded for their works. Salvation is a ONE TIME thing, when the Holy Spirit comes to live inside a temple of God and seals it forever. There is not a single verse that warns Christians about loosing salvation, but many that teach freedom in Christ. Do not let false teachings put fear in your heart. Scripture says " God has not given us a spirit of fear ".

Those on all sides of this argument believe they are interpreting the scriptures according to the plain meaning. That is the reason why this issue has not been resolved. It has nothing to do with pride. You say that there are no scriptures that indicate you can lose your salvation? It depends on how you interpret them. Take the parable of the prodigal son for instance. The prodigal is mentioned as being a son, and we know his Father represents God. When he leaves and turns to a life of sin, he is refered to later as having been dead and lost, terms that refer to the lost. When he returns, it says that his son who was dead is alive "again." In Revelations, it speaks of one's name being able to be blotted out of the book of life, and in the OT, God states that those who sinned with regard to the golden calf would have their names removed from his book. In Hebrews, the Bible says that those who commit wilful sins after having come to the knowledge of the truth are no longer under God's blood covering. This is just a handful of examples I know of from memory. It is not as simple as you want to make it out.

[taylor30]

The scriptures are VERY clear that OSAS is true. Sometimes we choose not to believe it because it seems too easy and hurts our pride to not be able to earn our own salvation. Sometimes we choose not to believe it because we see others who claim to be saved but bear no fruit. We must be careful however not to interpret scripture by what we THINK IT SHOULD SAY, instead we must let scripture speak for itself. Christ made it very plain that he came to set people free and that he himself would pay the price that we couldn't. Many verses show that works have absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation. For the unsaved, they will be judged by their works. For the saved, they will be rewarded for their works. Salvation is a ONE TIME thing, when the Holy Spirit comes to live inside a temple of God and seals it forever. There is not a single verse that warns Christians about loosing salvation, but many that teach freedom in Christ. Do not let false teachings put fear in your heart. Scripture says " God has not given us a spirit of fear ".

Those on all sides of this argument believe they are interpreting the scriptures according to the plain meaning. That is the reason why this issue has not been resolved. It has nothing to do with pride. You say that there are no scriptures that indicate you can lose your salvation? It depends on how you interpret them. Take the parable of the prodigal son for instance. The prodigal is mentioned as being a son, and we know his Father represents God. When he leaves and turns to a life of sin, he is refered to later as having been dead and lost, terms that refer to the lost. When he returns, it says that his son who was dead is alive "again." In Revelations, it speaks of one's name being able yup be blotted out of the book of life, and in the OT, God states that those who sinned with regard to the golden calf would have their names removed from his book. In Hebrews, the Bible says that those who commit wilful sins after having come to the knowledge of the truth are no longer under God's blood covering. This is just a handful of examples I know of from memory. It is not as simple as you want to make it out.

Actually it really is that simple. The examples you have chosen are taken out of context. There are indeed passages that talk about falling from grace and departing from the faith, however closer study reveals these actually are NOT talking about salvation. For example, you mentioned the prodigal son. Yes he did leave and come back, but he never lost his position as a son. He rebelled, but he was still a son. His situation certainly changed because of his choices, yet his standing with his father NEVER DID. We can be punished for rebelling and walking away after salvation, however our salvation is secure and God promises to ensure it. Its not our job to keep it, its God's, he himself says it. If works do not earn salvation, works do not lose salvation. It really is simple. People continue to argue because they don't like what God does, and they arrogantly think they know better than he. Salvation is secure, NO MATTER WHAT, EVEN IF WE WALK AWAY.

[Guest Butero]

The scriptures are VERY clear that OSAS is true. Sometimes we choose not to believe it because it seems too easy and hurts our pride to not be able to earn our own salvation. Sometimes we choose not to believe it because we see others who claim to be saved but bear no fruit. We must be careful however not to interpret scripture by what we THINK IT SHOULD SAY, instead we must let scripture speak for itself. Christ made it very plain that he came to set people free and that he himself would pay the price that we couldn't. Many verses show that works have absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation. For the unsaved, they will be judged by their works. For the saved, they will be rewarded for their works. Salvation is a ONE TIME thing, when the Holy Spirit comes to live inside a temple of God and seals it forever. There is not a single verse that warns Christians about loosing salvation, but many that teach freedom in Christ. Do not let false teachings put fear in your heart. Scripture says " God has not given us a spirit of fear ".

Those on all sides of this argument believe they are interpreting the scriptures according to the plain meaning. That is the reason why this issue has not been resolved. It has nothing to do with pride. You say that there are no scriptures that indicate you can lose your salvation? It depends on how you interpret them. Take the parable of the prodigal son for instance. The prodigal is mentioned as being a son, and we know his Father represents God. When he leaves and turns to a life of sin, he is refered to later as having been dead and lost, terms that refer to the lost. When he returns, it says that his son who was dead is alive "again." In Revelations, it speaks of one's name being able yup be blotted out of the book of life, and in the OT, God states that those who sinned with regard to the golden calf would have their names removed from his book. In Hebrews, the Bible says that those who commit wilful sins after having come to the knowledge of the truth are no longer under God's blood covering. This is just a handful of examples I know of from memory. It is not as simple as you want to make it out.

Actually it really is that simple. The examples you have chosen are taken out of context. There are indeed passages that talk about falling from grace and departing from the faith, however closer study reveals these actually are NOT talking about salvation. For example, you mentioned the prodigal son. Yes he did leave and come back, but he never lost his position as a son. He rebelled, but he was still a son. His situation certainly changed because of his choices, yet his standing with his father NEVER DID. We can be punished for rebelling and walking away after salvation, however our salvation is secure and God promises to ensure it. Its not our job to keep it, its God's, he himself says it. If works do not earn salvation, works do not lose salvation. It really is simple. People continue to argue because they don't like what God does, and they arrogantly think they know better than he. Salvation is secure, NO MATTER WHAT, EVEN IF WE WALK AWAY.

Again, here is the problem. You say people are taking things out of context, and those same people will say you are taking things out of context. There are numerous commentaries out there, and depending on who wrote them, and what denomination they belong to, they will say something completely differen't about the scriptures. Let's turn to the prodigal son for a moment. The story is found in Luke 15:11-32.

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

In this story, the certain man is speaking of God the Father, and this is refering to two of his children. Since they are called his children, this means they must have been saved.

12 And the younger of them said to his Father, Father, give me the portions of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

In these verses, we see that this saved man walks away from God and goes into sin. His life begins to crumble, and we see this continual degeneration in verses 14-17. This leads him to make a decision to return to God.

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee.

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

He makes a decision to repent, and then he returns to God the Father. Scripture tells us in 1 John 1:9 that "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to clease us from all unrighteousness." God is true to his word with regard to his son.

20 And he arose, and came to his father, But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

If you simply look at this portion of the story, it does appear the son was always saved, but not so fast. Let's jump down to what the Father says about him in verse 24.

24 For this my son was dead,

Dead would indicate he was dead in his tresspasses and sins. He was no longer saved. Had he died in that state, he would have spent eternity in hell. Let's continue in verse 24.

24 ...and is alive again

This indicates that he had been saved or alive, but died. Now he is alive again. Back to verse 24

24 ...he was lost

Again, lost indicates a state where he was not saved.

24 ...and is found

This indicates that he has now been restored. You see this same language repeated in verse 32.

32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

No Pastor Taylor, it is not as simple as you make it out. There are reasons why OSAS continues to be a controversial doctrine, or if you prefer, why the debate over whether or not OSAS is true is controversial? There are many more scriptures that can be used to show that a person can lose their salvation, though they were once truly born again Christians. I am just giving you one passage. What you would say is that somehow this is out of context or a wrong interpretation, because that is what you believe, but those on the other side would be just a strong in saying you are taking things out of context and wrong in your interpretation. I have been discussing this topic with people for years, and have had a chance to listen to both sides of the arguments. It did change my view, but not over to OSAS. That doesn't fit. I have come to believe in predestination and election, but I can see the reason why people take the positions that they do.

Let's take something else you said for a moment. You said people reject OSAS because of pride. They want to have a part in their salvation. I could say the same thing about you. You do believe you have to make a decision to accept Christ to be saved don't you? That means you have a hand in your salvation, because it ultimately was your choice to accept him or reject him. If you want to really get rid of the pride fully, accept the idea as I have that your salvation was God's decision alone. If you are saved, it is because you were predestined to be saved, and if you are lost, God chose to keep the scales on your eyes so you remained spiritually blind. Then you truly have nothing to do with your salvation. OSAS is an in between doctrine, somewhere between works and salvation by grace. Yes, you believe if you are saved, you lose your ability to lose your salvation, but you still believe you are saved because of a personal choice. Those who reject OSAS believe you always have a choice whether to be saved or lost, to the day you die. If you can choose to get saved, you can choose to walk away. Only those who believe in predestination believe God is fully in control. Once again, it comes down to interpretation.

Before I forget, welcome to WB Pastortaylor30. It is nice to meet you.

[nChrist]

The scriptures are VERY clear that OSAS is true. Sometimes we choose not to believe it because it seems too easy and hurts our pride to not be able to earn our own salvation. Sometimes we choose not to believe it because we see others who claim to be saved but bear no fruit. We must be careful however not to interpret scripture by what we THINK IT SHOULD SAY, instead we must let scripture speak for itself. Christ made it very plain that he came to set people free and that he himself would pay the price that we couldn't. Many verses show that works have absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation. For the unsaved, they will be judged by their works. For the saved, they will be rewarded for their works. Salvation is a ONE TIME thing, when the Holy Spirit comes to live inside a temple of God and seals it forever. There is not a single verse that warns Christians about loosing salvation, but many that teach freedom in Christ. Do not let false teachings put fear in your heart. Scripture says " God has not given us a spirit of fear ".

Those on all sides of this argument believe they are interpreting the scriptures according to the plain meaning. That is the reason why this issue has not been resolved. It has nothing to do with pride. You say that there are no scriptures that indicate you can lose your salvation? It depends on how you interpret them. Take the parable of the prodigal son for instance. The prodigal is mentioned as being a son, and we know his Father represents God. When he leaves and turns to a life of sin, he is refered to later as having been dead and lost, terms that refer to the lost. When he returns, it says that his son who was dead is alive "again." In Revelations, it speaks of one's name being able yup be blotted out of the book of life, and in the OT, God states that those who sinned with regard to the golden calf would have their names removed from his book. In Hebrews, the Bible says that those who commit wilful sins after having come to the knowledge of the truth are no longer under God's blood covering. This is just a handful of examples I know of from memory. It is not as simple as you want to make it out.

Actually it really is that simple. The examples you have chosen are taken out of context. There are indeed passages that talk about falling from grace and departing from the faith, however closer study reveals these actually are NOT talking about salvation. For example, you mentioned the prodigal son. Yes he did leave and come back, but he never lost his position as a son. He rebelled, but he was still a son. His situation certainly changed because of his choices, yet his standing with his father NEVER DID. We can be punished for rebelling and walking away after salvation, however our salvation is secure and God promises to ensure it. Its not our job to keep it, its God's, he himself says it. If works do not earn salvation, works do not lose salvation. It really is simple. People continue to argue because they don't like what God does, and they arrogantly think they know better than he. Salvation is secure, NO MATTER WHAT, EVEN IF WE WALK AWAY.

Amen! - Exactly - When God makes Promises - He keeps them perfectly. When He gives Eternal Life - it's just that - Eternal.

John 3:16-18 ASV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Guest Butero]

The scriptures are VERY clear that OSAS is true. Sometimes we choose not to believe it because it seems too easy and hurts our pride to not be able to earn our own salvation. Sometimes we choose not to believe it because we see others who claim to be saved but bear no fruit. We must be careful however not to interpret scripture by what we THINK IT SHOULD SAY, instead we must let scripture speak for itself. Christ made it very plain that he came to set people free and that he himself would pay the price that we couldn't. Many verses show that works have absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation. For the unsaved, they will be judged by their works. For the saved, they will be rewarded for their works. Salvation is a ONE TIME thing, when the Holy Spirit comes to live inside a temple of God and seals it forever. There is not a single verse that warns Christians about loosing salvation, but many that teach freedom in Christ. Do not let false teachings put fear in your heart. Scripture says " God has not given us a spirit of fear ".

Those on all sides of this argument believe they are interpreting the scriptures according to the plain meaning. That is the reason why this issue has not been resolved. It has nothing to do with pride. You say that there are no scriptures that indicate you can lose your salvation? It depends on how you interpret them. Take the parable of the prodigal son for instance. The prodigal is mentioned as being a son, and we know his Father represents God. When he leaves and turns to a life of sin, he is refered to later as having been dead and lost, terms that refer to the lost. When he returns, it says that his son who was dead is alive "again." In Revelations, it speaks of one's name being able yup be blotted out of the book of life, and in the OT, God states that those who sinned with regard to the golden calf would have their names removed from his book. In Hebrews, the Bible says that those who commit wilful sins after having come to the knowledge of the truth are no longer under God's blood covering. This is just a handful of examples I know of from memory. It is not as simple as you want to make it out.

Actually it really is that simple. The examples you have chosen are taken out of context. There are indeed passages that talk about falling from grace and departing from the faith, however closer study reveals these actually are NOT talking about salvation. For example, you mentioned the prodigal son. Yes he did leave and come back, but he never lost his position as a son. He rebelled, but he was still a son. His situation certainly changed because of his choices, yet his standing with his father NEVER DID. We can be punished for rebelling and walking away after salvation, however our salvation is secure and God promises to ensure it. Its not our job to keep it, its God's, he himself says it. If works do not earn salvation, works do not lose salvation. It really is simple. People continue to argue because they don't like what God does, and they arrogantly think they know better than he. Salvation is secure, NO MATTER WHAT, EVEN IF WE WALK AWAY.

Amen! - Exactly - When God makes Promises - He keeps them perfectly. When He gives Eternal Life - it's just that - Eternal.

John 3:16-18 ASV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Really N'Christ??? If that is the case, then why don't you directly address my last post, and explain the parable of the prodigal son as I laid it out. It is real easy to post what you did without being able to actually defend your position. I will address the scriptures you posted.

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This verse tells us why God the Father sent his Son. He loved the world, and he didn't want his creation to perish. As such, Jesus came that those who believe in him "should" not perish, but have everlasting life. Notice that it doesn't say shall, but should. Words have meaning, and this makes it clear that some will believe, but won't have eternal life. The devils believe but aren't saved.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

This verse shows that it was not for the purpose of condemning us that Jesus came. He came that the world through him "might" be saved. They won't absolutely be saved, but they might be saved. The entire world is not saved. There are many who don't believe in Jesus, so we know it doesn't mean everyone will literally be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If you believe in Jesus, there is hope for you, that you should and might be saved. If you don't believe, you are condemned from the start.

[Guest]

.... If you believe in Jesus, there is hope for you, that you should and might be saved. If you don't believe, you are condemned from the start....

Another Take Beloved

For If You Believe In Jesus, There Is Sure Hope For You, That You Should And Might Have Salvation

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

But If You Do Not Believe in Jesus, There Is No Hope For You,

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

You Will Not Be Saved

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

____________

_________

______

___

Lean On HIM

And Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

And in his name shall the Gentiles trust. Matthew 12:20-21

Love, Your Brother Joe

[nChrist]

Ephesians 2:1-5 ASV And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest: - 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),

Ephesians 1:13-14 ASV in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, - in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory.