The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[~candice~]

I know we were trying in this debate to get away from semantics as it just goes around in circles...but I don't honestly believe that many people who use the term OSAS are detractors of its meaning,

many of us that use the term simply apply it as a sort of consolidated synopsis on our position concerning the eternal security of every Believer.

I first came across it years ago in a book of that title by R.T. Kendall...I have subsequently heard it used by many people that promote this understanding of salvation...so I think trying to make a

distinction between OSAS and ES and declare that the term OSAS was formulated by those who are detractors of such a doctrine is....nonsense.

As I have said before, the main sticking point for those that believe in conditional salvation centers around the assumption that it lets a Believer get away with unchecked sin, and gives them license

to do what they like...thus in a sense, preaching another Gospel. Paul tackled this kind of thinking when he contrasted the grace we have as Believers with the sort of freedom that grace implies,

and he made it very clear that it did NOT give anyone a license to continue sinning.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be!

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

OSAS is not a false gospel of easy grace...it is merely a profound element of divine love found within the whole package concerning our salvation.

I cannot agree more. This semantic argument is so trivial. I don't know why so many pages of posts are wasted on it. OSAS conveys a sense of permanency of salvation, nothing more.

Though I really do think the OSAS/ES crowd either have not understood, or not properly refuted Butero's point. If you want assurance of salvation under the ES doctrine, you first must have assurance you are a genuine Christian. Conditional on this fact, it is clear you have been saved, are being saved and will be saved. But that is a big condition and uncertainty surrounding whether or not you are a genuine Christian should transfer to an equal uncertainty about your salvation.

[Guest shiloh357]

I know we were trying in this debate to get away from semantics as it just goes around in circles...but I don't honestly believe that many people who use the term OSAS are detractors of its meaning,

Not intentionally, at least.

I first came across it years ago in a book of that title by R.T. Kendall...I have subsequently heard it used by many people that promote this understanding of salvation...so I think trying to make a

distinction between OSAS and ES and declare that the term OSAS was formulated by those who are detractors of such a doctrine is....nonsense.

It isn't nonsense, its the truth.

Eternal Security communicates, even in the title, that it is Divine keeping. It is eternal and it is security. It is not a mere status. That once you are saved, you are always saved, no matter what. OSAS doesn't communicate the fact that salvation is not something you keep, but rather salvation keeps you. You are kept by Divine, eternal power.

The fact that some authors use it is not really relevant. OSAS is not theologically accurate, no matter who uses the terminology. Why is it so hard to simply refer to a doctrine by its proper name?

[Guest shiloh357]

When I said that doctrine is something that is taught, that is the Dictionary definition. Websters Dictionary says that doctrine is 1. A particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrtine. 2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.

It seems like you are not speaking in terms of doctrine, but sound doctrine.

That works for me as well. OSAS is not sound doctrine. I can acquiese to that. I will concede then that OSAS is a doctrine. It is simply a false doctrine based on a perversion of Eternal Security.

[~candice~]

I searched for OSAS in my local Christian bookstore and saw this

http://www.koorong.com/search/product/nwp-once-saved-always-saved-r-t-kendall/1932805273.jhtml

Nwp: Once Saved, Always Saved

R T Kendall

Paperback. 164 pages. Part of the New Westminster Pulpit Series

Price: $13.95

The Bible commands us to make our calling and election sure. Why is it then that so many Christians today struggle with the issue of assurance? Embracing the doctrine of eternal security, R.T. Kendall encourages the Christian struggling with legalism, bondage, and fear, and points us towards God's glorious promises. Once Saved, Always Saved is not a book for the complacent, as secure in our salvation we are challenged to live our lives with godly fear before the judgment seat of Christ. 164 pages, from Paternoster. <br style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; ">- Publisher.

He is using OSAS and ES as synonymous. You still haven't given any evidence that OSAS is a label dreamed up by the anti-ES crowd except for saying "yes it is". There are many who use OSAS without tacking on "licence to sin" as you accuse.

[~candice~]

Here's another book equating the two.

http://www.koorong.com/search/product/counterpoints-four-views-on-eternal-security-stanley-gundry/0310234395.jhtml

[taylor30]

Hello brothers and sisters. I want to voice a few things. For one, i have noticed that people seem to hate the NIV. I will not deny that the NIV has attempted to change a few things, however the removal of about a dozen scriptures is NOT something it should be judged for. When it was first pointed out to me that it was missing verses, I was troubled. However upon further reading on the issue, I discovered something. Those verses WERE NOT a part of inspired scripture. A look at the earliest writings shows those verses to be missing. That means the NIV and many,others have NOT removed any verses, they simply refused to add uninspired verses. Sadly the KJV has violated the command not to add to scripture as it does include those verses that were NEVER supposed to be here. Those who hold to the KJV will no doubt leap to its defense and ignore these facts, however that will NOT change the truth, that the KJV does,in fact include manmade uninspired verses that were added in some cases centuries later.

On another note, I have become even more firm in my belief of OSAS. I have heard some people spout opiniond with no scripture to back it up. This is because they know there IS NONE. I have directly challenged several people to show me scripturally why OSAS is false, and NO ONE has. That is because it can't be done. OSAS is a very clear teaching in scripture, and opponents simply don't like it. So,they close their bibles and try to say it isn't there, as if wishing hard enough will make it so. Please people, READ YOUR SCRIPTURES, quit trying to change the word of God to fit what YOU think it should say, and let God speak for himself.

If you had any influence with me in this thread, you lost it here. No, the KJV did not add to the Word of God. The NIV deleted part of the text. No, the original Bible did not leave out those verses. The original Bible was the Textus Receptus manuscripts, and that is what the KJV was translated from. Over the years, additional copies of the manuscripts, including fragments were found. The authors of the new Bible translations used those manuscripts to interpret from, and some of them left out portions of the original text. If you will notice in the NIV, it never says that "the original manuscripts leave out..." What is says is, "the most reliable manuscripts leave out..." That is their opinion, based on nothing. They prefered certain verses be left out, and they left them out. This is an all out assault of the Word of God. Unfortunately, many in this world are blind to this deception. While you are praying for those who reject OSAS, you need to pray that the scales be taken from your eyes.

Now, you claim that those who promote OSAS are using scripture. Some are and others are not. You yourself have used very little scripture. You have been a cheerleader for others who took the time to post scripture, but you haven't posted many verses yourself. You haven't really even debated the scriptures. You simply post statements in favor of your opinion. If you really believe what you say, then I suggest that you post all the scriptures that you believe prove OSAS, followed by the reason you believe each one proves that doctrine is true. Then we can all take a shot at agreeing or disagreeing with them. And again, if you post from the NIV, I will reject them based on that alone. I stand by the KJV only, because sadly, many of the modern English translations violated God's word by removing portions of the text. Out of respect for the TOS, I am being very careful what I say in this regard. I don't want to say anything that I believe God would be unhappy with, but the attack by Satan and his use of others to propogate an attack on the true Word of God angers me. Satan has been trying to destroy God's Word, and working overtime to do it, with all of these new perverted translations. I for one won't stand idly by and allow that to occur without a fight.

By the way, you say you noticed that many hate the NIV. It is not just the NIV that I hate, but it is the attack on God's Word by Satan in general. I hate how Satan is getting away with perverting God's Holy Word. I hate how people who claim to be Christians help him do it.

Well I will certainly agree with your last sentence if you catch my drift. Actually I have read several books by Greek scholoars who swear up and down that the versesd missing from NIV were NOT in the original manuscripts. Your textus Receptus may be what KJV was translated from, but that doesn't change the fact that we actually have fragments of manuscripts going back to the 2nd century that have verses missing. As far as your prejudice of the NIV, I am not actually defending it. I myself use the NASB or NKJV. Many prominent men have touched on this issue, I am not making it up. If you are not aware of this, maybe you should start reading some books and spend less time arguing with people on here, especially when you clearly don't even know some of these facts yourself since you are srguing about it. Yes Satan is trying VERY hard to rob people of their security. Satan can quote scripture too can't he? You can claim KJV all you want. I am NOT telling you not to, I am only saying some of its verses WERE added later, which as much as you may hate that, IS A FACT that has been PROVEN. As far as my not using scripture to back myself up, I specifically asked you to show me where you proved OSAS wrong, and you either ignored me or didn't care to. Practice what you preach. Don't accuse me of something I specifically asked you to do and you DIDN'T. I have studied this subject at great length. I did not approach this subject with ANY preconcieved notions. I came to my belief as a RESULT of what scripture teaches. As far as losing respect, thanks. I have had Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons and others say that too. Scripture says That followers WILL be persecuted, so thank you. I will sleep better tonight with that confirmation. When I see the OSAS opponents show by scripture what they believe, I will do likewise. BUt until then, I see no need to defend what others spaek as mere opinion.

[enoob57]

There are many who use OSAS without tacking on "license to sin"...

To know His sufferings and to think it to be passage for further spit to be placed upon Him is the vilest of offenses!

He 'IS' the truest friend we shall ever know! Through Him-> we shall be also to others such a friend but to keep the

merit as if we are source of the doing... I think not! I believe the writer of this

Heb 6:4-8

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

NKJV

His heart is saying that to know Him and His suffering and to turn from that is impossible... I might fall into sins pleasures but I could not trade them for Christ! I can not give up the Love my Lord has taught me of Himself it exceeds all value of all known things... the comparative that follows that of food and that of weeds is directive to this value we all hold in our hearts for Him Who has given us eternity in Him... could we really being born in Him trade everything for nothing? This also seen in the cry of Peter

John 6:68-69

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

NKJV

Love, Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

I searched for OSAS in my local Christian bookstore and saw this

http://www.koorong.com/search/product/nwp-once-saved-always-saved-r-t-kendall/1932805273.jhtml

Nwp: Once Saved, Always Saved

R T Kendall

Paperback. 164 pages. Part of the New Westminster Pulpit Series

Price: $13.95

The Bible commands us to make our calling and election sure. Why is it then that so many Christians today struggle with the issue of assurance? Embracing the doctrine of eternal security, R.T. Kendall encourages the Christian struggling with legalism, bondage, and fear, and points us towards God's glorious promises. Once Saved, Always Saved is not a book for the complacent, as secure in our salvation we are challenged to live our lives with godly fear before the judgment seat of Christ. 164 pages, from Paternoster. <br style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; ">- Publisher.

He is using OSAS and ES as synonymous. You still haven't given any evidence that OSAS is a label dreamed up by the anti-ES crowd except for saying "yes it is". There are many who use OSAS without tacking on "licence to sin" as you accuse.

Yes, but they are pro-ES AND they are part of our modern community. There are really not many in the anti-ES crowd who view it your way. "OSAS" is part of our modern vocabulary. It is part of how people talk today. It was never part of historical Christian thinking. It is a modern term and those who believe in ES, for the most part, have embraced the term, without embracing the negative connotation it possesses. But historically, the doctrine of ES has held a far different position than what the anti-ES crowd has assigned it. "OSAS" is at best another way of referring to Eternal Security but it has never meant to be flattering. It was meant to reflect the notion that once saved, you are always saved no matter what you do, even if you reject God and convert to Hinduism or something.

You don't see OSAS that way, and that's fine, but if you do an Internet search of "the doctrine of OSAS" and see what pops up, you will find that no anti-ES folks view it the way you do. I am operating from the most commonly accepted and widest conventional view of OSAS as expressed by the overwhelming majority of those who are anti-ES.

In fact, I was a Christian for over twenty years having gone to churches that believe in Eternal Security and I NEVER heard the term OSAS until started interacting with the anti-ES crowd. In fact, my biggest exposure to that term was been with anti-ES folks on this board and it has always been used by most people here in a negative sense. It has been consistently defined the anti-ES crowd on this board as a license to sin. I didn't assign that value to OSAS. The anti-ES crowd (of which you claim to belong) assigned that vlalue to it. So if ou are really concerned that it is being misrepresented, you need to convince other anti-ES folks that OSAS does not provide a license to sin.

It has only been within the last 5-10 years that proponents of ES have acquiesed to using OSAS. Major historical works on the subject never used the term OSAS that I am aware of.

[nChrist]

What I am getting from Butero, and it is a point I haven't seen adequately addressed, is that ES hinges on the fact that a genuine Christian has been transformed and will continue to live for God. Under this understanding of ES, where is the security for backsliders? I agree, in part, that you can hardly call it security if at some future point in time, you might backslide, indicating you were actually never born again. ES, OSAS, anti-OSAS, whatever.... this issue of people of faith living for a time in the world needs to be addressed and I don't think it has been addressed adequately by either side.

OSAS is a TRUE statement that doesn't need to be watered down - because of the Promises of God. It's just that simple and the end of the story because God always keeps His Promises.

You are using OSAS a way differently to Shiloh. Shiloh defines it as being able to sin as much as you want after salvation and being saved. I for one agree with your definition.

No, I am simply willing to be up front about the way the overwhelming majority of anti-ES folks define it. nChrist is defining ES not OSAS.

They are one and the SAME. OSAS is Eternal Security, and Eternal Security is Once Saved - Always Saved. God's Promises are involved in both. You can't have Eternal Security without OSAS, and you can't have OSAS without Eternal Security. The definition is dirt simple - you either have Eternal Security and are Saved forever or you don't. If you have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, YOU HAVE IT.

No, they are not one and the same. That is just wrong. OSAS has a manward focus. ES has a God-ward focus. OSAS is all about how much you can sin and get away with. ES is predicated on the promises of God and His faithfulness to honor His word.

OSAS is a bogus made up label meant to characterize ES as a license to sin. It was made up by the anti-ES crowd to paint ES as teaching that you can sin and that your salvtation is unconditional regardless of how much sin you commit. Hence the "always" in OSAS. Once you are saved, you are always saved, unconditionally and thus you are free to sin without impunity.

That is entirely different that ES.

Says who? This is turning into a game of semantics, and I don't think the subject matter deserves this. Eternal - ALWAYS - FOREVER. You really need to do away with the word Eternal, and that can't be done with the Holy Bible. If God gives you Eternal Life - it's ETERNAL LIFE that you have. One can't have Eternal Life without being Saved, so now we're full circle in the game of semantics again. Always Saved - Saved Forever - Eternal Life - Eternal Security - ALL THE SAME - God's Promises will be kept. At what point will God's Promises go into effect? Can God's Promises be broken? The Answers - at the moment of Salvation and NO - God's Promises can't be broken.

[nChrist]

OSAS - Once Saved - Always Saved - TRUE! I am saved FOREVER - have ETERNAL LIFE - and have ETERNAL SECURITY. The only questions are am I TRULY SAVED and do I have the Holy Spirit of God Living in my heart? YES! There's only ONE way to be TRULY SAVED - GOD HAS TO DO IT - He makes the new believer a new creature - a rebirth from above - and the Holy Spirit of God indwells the heart - SEALING it as a purchased POSSESSION of GOD. The new believer is quickened (translated) into Christ - His Body. We're talking about the WORKS AND PROMISES OF GOD - not man. I hope that those reading this at least know that GOD ALWAYS KEEPS HIS PROMISES!

Ephesians 2:1-7 KJV And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Most of the following questions are easy, but some appear not to know. In case someone wants to know, I'm not a Calvinist - nor are these arguments based on Calvinism. Regardless, God knows them who are HIS before the foundation of the world.

What is Eternal Life? Doesn't this mean to live forever?

Is there any such thing as Eternal Life? YES, God says so!

Who gives Eternal Life? God - by His Promises.

2 Corinthians 1:20-22 KJV 20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Is it God that gives Eternal Life and does God mean it? God gives His Promise of Eternal Life at the moment of Salvation. So, it stands to reason that if a man has Eternal Life - he is Saved Forever. The two go together. Trying to separate them leads to error and mishandling of God's Word. Separating the two would mean that you have to delete anything having to do with Eternity from the Holy Bible. One either has Eternal Life - that's FOREVER - or they don't - that's LOST.

John 10:28-30 KJV And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

Is Salvation on the installment plan with a repossession clause? NO!

Is Salvation a GIFT, or does man have to pay something for it? Surely you know that Salvation is a GIFT that can't be purchased - isn't deserved - can't be earned - must be given by the GRACE of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If Salvation requires PAYMENTS by man, what does man have of any worth for the PAYMENT? Absolutely Nothing!

Are all men sinners - including those who have been Saved? YES!

Has any man ever been Saved by the LAW? NO!

King David was born and lived under the Law - and he committed a death penalty offense - adultery. Was King David disqualified because of this horrible sin? Keep in mind this was under the Law before the Cross. The answer is NO!

Saved or not - does man have any righteousness of his own? NO! Didn't God say that our righteousness is as filthy rags?

Is any man capable of living a holy life without sin? NO! So, if sin disqualifies a man, all men are disqualified and NONE are fit for Salvation.

What is the one word that is accounted unto man as righteousness? FAITH!

Romans 3:27-28 KJV Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In this Age of Grace, what are the requirements for Salvation? Forget about trying to add good works and works of the Law. Anyone should know better than this if they have a beginning understanding of Jesus Christ and the Cross.

Romans 10:8-10 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Who redeems us, justifies us, sanctifies us, and makes us fit to become partakers with the Saints in LIGHT? Forget about yourself and other men - it's CHRIST - NO OTHER.

Narrow the argument to Salvation - NOT works for rewards, NOT exhortations for Christian living, NOT living testimony before men, NOT quantity/quality of daily fellowship with God, and NOT anything else that will blur your vision of the single topic in question - SALVATION.

1 John 5:11-13 KJV And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:4-5 KJV For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

John 3:16-18 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 3:19-28 KJV Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Colossians 1:12-13 KJV Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Romans 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:1-2 KJV There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:38-39 KJV For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 1:12-14 KJV That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Philippians 1:5-6 KJV For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 KJV 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Titus 1:1-2 KJV Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

This issue has been "what if'd" to death, and many of the arguments don't pertain to Salvation at all. If you disagree, so be it, but I don't know how you brush away God's Promises so easily. I think that I've had all that I care to participate in, especially considering this is turning into word games.