The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[Botz]

I'm sorry if I missed it Botz, but what was your answer to my condition while backslidden? I was either unsaved, or was saved and yet living in and loving sin while rejecting Christ. I find both options rather damaging to the OSAS/ES position. Of course you could suggest I was never saved to begin with, but my personal experience of the Lord before I fell away was undeniable. Thoughts?

I believe you were backslidden, given in to the flesh...you knew G-d but chose to indulge your sinful desires.

I don't believe you slipped out of salvation, and then back into salvation...I believe you placed yourself in a precarious position in which you could have remained and gone on to lead a fruitless life

even to the point where you didn't know if you were saved and became fearful of death itself with no assurance of salvation....but I don't believe Candice the New Creation, could ever of her own

will or intention reverse her spiritual birth as it was never dependant on her in the first place.

You might have only got to serve drinks in eternity and run errands because you did not lay your hand to the plough, and did not run the race...even though you were the L-rds.

but rather a door-keeper in the House of the L-rd...etc

[Bold Believer]

Eternal Security is often confused with a doctrine called antinomianism, which means 'against law'. A person who claims salvation and acts in a consistently unsaved manner is said to be antinomian, flaunting the Law of God. One fulfills the Law by acting in love; one flaunts it by acting against it.

[Guest]

For The Love Of God

But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. Psalms 1:2

~

Eternal Security is often confused with a doctrine called antinomianism, which means 'against law'. A person who claims salvation and acts in a consistently unsaved manner is said to be antinomian, flaunting the Law of God. One fulfills the Law by acting in love; one flaunts it by acting against it....

Amen~! The Law Is Good

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19

The Law Points Us To Jesus

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Luke 24:44

The Law Turns Us To Repentance

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19

The Law Turns Us To Jesus

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:10-12

And To Sanctification

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ephesians 5:25-27

Teaching Us That Without Jesus We Surly Have No Hope

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:22

But That Within Jesus We Find Glorious Hope

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:3-5

Sure Hope Forever And Ever Amen

[~candice~]

I'm sorry if I missed it Botz, but what was your answer to my condition while backslidden? I was either unsaved, or was saved and yet living in and loving sin while rejecting Christ. I find both options rather damaging to the OSAS/ES position. Of course you could suggest I was never saved to begin with, but my personal experience of the Lord before I fell away was undeniable. Thoughts?

I believe you were backslidden, given in to the flesh...you knew G-d but chose to indulge your sinful desires.

I don't believe you slipped out of salvation, and then back into salvation...I believe you placed yourself in a precarious position in which you could have remained and gone on to lead a fruitless life

even to the point where you didn't know if you were saved and became fearful of death itself with no assurance of salvation....but I don't believe Candice the New Creation, could ever of her own

will or intention reverse her spiritual birth as it was never dependant on her in the first place.

You might have only got to serve drinks in eternity and run errands because you did not lay your hand to the plough, and did not run the race...even though you were the L-rds.

but rather a door-keeper in the House of the L-rd...etc

OK... I really hate this topic. My heart just isn't in it...every time I go to debate it I lose the passion for it.

My own thoughts are that while eternal security is nice to have, the reality is that each of us wakes up each day and needs to decide to live for the Lord that day. It doesn't matter where you have come from, and if you were truly saved before backsliding, or if your relationship with God is in a terrible shape or a fantastic shape... the answer is always to pick up your cross, follow Him, ask for forgiveness.

What bugs me, far more than it should , is the dogged proclamation that those people who are genuinely saved would never do xyz...

Well I have done xyz and I was genuinely saved. It is the rejection of what others have very plainly experienced that gets to me. 1 Cor 10 says to be careful if we think we are strong less we fall.

[Guest shiloh357]

What bugs me, far more than it should , is the dogged proclamation that those people who are genuinely saved would never do xyz...

Well I have done xyz and I was genuinely saved. It is the rejection of what others have very plainly experienced that gets to me.

Theology can never be based on what someone else claims to have experienced. I know and used to work with one guy who visits prostitutes, but tells me he is convinced he is saved. He can quote from the Bible as good as anyone I know. He knows it's wrong. He knows it is a sin, but to him it is no different than telling a lie and if you can tell a lie, get forgiven and still go to heaven then it is the same for his fornication as well.

Here is what the Bible says:

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

(1Jn 3:6-10)

Even in the Greek, what we have here is a passage that tells us that a genuine believer doesn't make a habit of sin. A genuine believer living in sin is an oxymoron. According to John, if we are born of God, we cannot live in sin.

Now, do I accept his testimony or do I accept the record of Scripture that says his testimony is false??? The worst thing I can do is treat personal testimony as sacrosanct and unquestionable, particularly when it goes against what the Bible depicts as a genuine believer. We come to that aspect of the character of the Bible that strikes at our pride and tells us that our assessment of ourselves is not how God sees us.

[~candice~]

What bugs me, far more than it should , is the dogged proclamation that those people who are genuinely saved would never do xyz...

Well I have done xyz and I was genuinely saved. It is the rejection of what others have very plainly experienced that gets to me.

Theology can never be based on what someone else claims to have experienced. I know and used to work with one guy who visits prostitutes, but tells me he is convinced he is saved. He can quote from the Bible as good as anyone I know. He knows it's wrong. He knows it is a sin, but to him it is no different than telling a lie and if you can tell a lie, get forgiven and still go to heaven then it is the same for his fornication as well.

Here is what the Bible says:

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

(1Jn 3:6-10)

Even in the Greek, what we have here is a passage that tells us that a genuine believer doesn't make a habit of sin. A genuine believer living in sin is an oxymoron. According to John, if we are born of God, we cannot live in sin.

Now, do I accept his testimony or do I accept the record of Scripture that says his testimony is false??? The worst thing I can do is treat personal testimony as sacrosanct and unquestionable, particularly when it goes against what the Bible depicts as a genuine believer. We come to that aspect of the character of the Bible that strikes at our pride and tells us that our assessment of ourselves is not how God sees us.

The issue is the time frame. Can you handle it if a genuinely saved Christian lingers in sin for 15 seconds? 20 minutes? A week? A year? 5 years? How long exactly is "keeps on sinning"??? You may have noticed but I have returned to the fold. I have not kept on sinning, in the manner 1 John is speaking about. It is just that the time period it took for me to return is longer than you seem willing to accept. How long were you backslidden, wasn't it years as well?

[Guest shiloh357]

What bugs me, far more than it should , is the dogged proclamation that those people who are genuinely saved would never do xyz...

Well I have done xyz and I was genuinely saved. It is the rejection of what others have very plainly experienced that gets to me.

Theology can never be based on what someone else claims to have experienced. I know and used to work with one guy who visits prostitutes, but tells me he is convinced he is saved. He can quote from the Bible as good as anyone I know. He knows it's wrong. He knows it is a sin, but to him it is no different than telling a lie and if you can tell a lie, get forgiven and still go to heaven then it is the same for his fornication as well.

Here is what the Bible says:

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

(1Jn 3:6-10)

Even in the Greek, what we have here is a passage that tells us that a genuine believer doesn't make a habit of sin. A genuine believer living in sin is an oxymoron. According to John, if we are born of God, we cannot live in sin.

Now, do I accept his testimony or do I accept the record of Scripture that says his testimony is false??? The worst thing I can do is treat personal testimony as sacrosanct and unquestionable, particularly when it goes against what the Bible depicts as a genuine believer. We come to that aspect of the character of the Bible that strikes at our pride and tells us that our assessment of ourselves is not how God sees us.

The issue is the time frame. Can you handle it if a genuinely saved Christian lingers in sin for 15 seconds? 20 minutes? A week? A year? 5 years? How long exactly is "keeps on sinning"??? You may have noticed but I have returned to the fold. I have not kept on sinning, in the manner 1 John is speaking about. It is just that the time period it took for me to return is longer than you seem willing to accept. How long were you backslidden, wasn't it years as well?

Candice I am talking about people who "get saved" yet there is no visible change in their lives. They can generally continue living in sin. I think a reasonable person who is willing to be honest about the text knows what a habitual lifestyle of continuous sin looks like I don't have to come up with an exact number of minutes, hours, day or months in order to identify that. Commonsense goes a long way here.

If a person who claims to be a Christian can live in sin, there is no conviction, no remorse, no inner struggle between the spirit and the flesh, nothing to indicate that one has a sincere desire to serve God, then any claim to be a believer while living in that sinful condition is likely to be incorrect. Not that they are lying, but that they are decieved into thinking that their contnuous ongoing lifestyle of sin does not indicate that their profession of faith might not be genuine.

[~candice~]

Candice I am talking about people who "get saved" yet there is no visible change in their lives. They can generally continue living in sin. I think a reasonable person who is willing to be honest about the text knows what a habitual lifestyle of continuous sin looks like I don't have to come up with an exact number of minutes, hours, day or months in order to identify that. Commonsense goes a long way here.

If a person who claims to be a Christian can live in sin, there is no conviction, no remorse, no inner struggle between the spirit and the flesh, nothing to indicate that one has a sincere desire to serve God, then any claim to be a believer while living in that sinful condition is likely to be incorrect. Not that they are lying, but that they are decieved into thinking that their contnuous ongoing lifestyle of sin does not indicate that their profession of faith might not be genuine.

I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about people who got saved (or claimed to) and had legitimate change in their life, then returned to the world for a season, and during that time, did not fight against sin but wallowed in it. I don't think what I have heard you say about ES allows for these people because ES is preconditioned on a person being genuinely saved in the first place (and here is the kicker, according to you, this means they would never do as I did). I left for a season, I did not continue to sin because I've returned. I just don't see why we can't acknowledge this happens. It's not unbiblical.

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about people who got saved (or claimed to) and had legitimate change in their life, then returned to the world for a season, and during that time, did not fight against sin but wallowed in it.

Yes, that is a problem, biblically. Again, if there is no struggle, no conviction from the Holy Spirit, if there no war against flesh, if such a person can live in sin, and live it up without any remorse or anything, that poses a real problem. The question is what kind of "change" occured? The notion that one can be transformed into a new creation, renewed and filled with the Spirit, given a new heart and a new desire to serve God but suddenly go back into living in sin and feel no remorse no struggle and fully enjoy sin in the process doesn't add up, biblically. Their profession of having been saved doesn't agree with their life/actions.

I don't think what I have heard you say about ES allows for these people because ES is preconditioned on a person being genuinely saved in the first place (and here is the kicker, according to you, this means they would never do as I did).

Why do you keep using the word "preconditioned?" I never said that. What I am saying is that the doctrine of ES is predicated upon or it assumes that a believer meets the bibilical definition of an authentic follower of Christ. ES doesn't have any preconditions. It is a doctrine. It holds that a person is secure because God is not going to break His promises with regard to salvation. It is man who has added OSAS into the mix and caused all kinds of confusion over a very simple and straightforward doctrine that reveals the faithfulness of God.

I left for a season, I did not continue to sin because I've returned. I just don't see why we can't acknowledge this happens. It's not unbiblical.

Well, that depends... Why did you choose, at that time, to go back into the world?

[~candice~]

I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about people who got saved (or claimed to) and had legitimate change in their life, then returned to the world for a season, and during that time, did not fight against sin but wallowed in it.

Yes, that is a problem, biblically. Again, if there is no struggle, no conviction from the Holy Spirit, if there no war against flesh, if such a person can live in sin, and live it up without any remorse or anything, that poses a real problem. The question is what kind of "change" occured? The notion that one can be transformed into a new creation, renewed and filled with the Spirit, given a new heart and a new desire to serve God but suddenly go back into living in sin and feel no remorse no struggle and fully enjoy sin in the process doesn't add up, biblically. Their profession of having been saved doesn't agree with their life/actions.

I don't think what I have heard you say about ES allows for these people because ES is preconditioned on a person being genuinely saved in the first place (and here is the kicker, according to you, this means they would never do as I did).

Why do you keep using the word "preconditioned?" I never said that. What I am saying is that the doctrine of ES is predicated upon or it assumes that a believer meets the bibilical definition of an authentic follower of Christ. ES doesn't have any preconditions. It is a doctrine. It holds that a person is secure because God is not going to break His promises with regard to salvation. It is man who has added OSAS into the mix and caused all kinds of confusion over a very simple and straightforward doctrine that reveals the faithfulness of God.

Ahhh this is driving me batty. Predicated... same thing. There is a clause. ES only applies to those who are genuine Christians. We got that . But your claim that genuine Christians would never live in sin requires a definition of such. Everytime I sin I have to turn off that voice of the Holy Spirit to do so. Even if just for a few seconds. Are people not genuine Christians because they do that? No. "Living in sin" needs some clarification because it's not as cut and dry as it is made out to be.

I left for a season, I did not continue to sin because I've returned. I just don't see why we can't acknowledge this happens. It's not unbiblical.

Well, that depends... Why did you choose, at that time, to go back into the world?

Because the Lord drew me back with such force I couldn't stay away any longer.