Calvinism and Corinthians 12:3

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But you are not addressing why the Lord calls it "the new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

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But you are not addressing why the Lord calls it "the new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

That was the name of the one people of God at that time.

You are manipulating the word of God to fit your theology!

You are to much!!

I may not be as good as manipulating debates as a lawyer like you do, but really some things are too unbelievable for words.

I might as well try to talk a cat out of chasing a mouse at this point.

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Is what I said untrue?

Were they not the people of God nominated Israel prior to the exile, and nominated Israel and Judah after the exile?

Were the people of God nominated Judah a separate body of God's people from those nominated Israel?

The one people of God have been nominated Hebrews, Israel, Judah, Church over the ages. It is all one and the same people of God.

When something negative is said of "the Jews" you loudly proclaim it as "the Jews."

But when something positive is said about "Israel and Judah", you brush it off as symbolic.

I don't care how much fancy verbal footwork you do with this, the bottom line is that you have selected out "the Jews" to be regarded with special disfavor, even though Paul declares that there is are advantages and benefits to being a Jew (Romans 3:1,2). But I'm sure you have some fancy words in your repertoire to attempt to nullify Paul's words here.

The hypocrisy is so clear, it's become laughable.

[Guest]

.... selected out "the Jews" to be regarded with special disfavor, even though Paul declares that there is are advantages and benefits to being a Jew (Romans 3:1,2)....

My LORD And My God

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:26-28

Is A Jew

And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David: )

To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.

And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. Luke 2:4-7

And I Love Him So

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A Little Of What The Travails Of That Precious And Stubborn And Blessed Jew

And Their Most Holy And Dear Book

Means To This Child

[Guest yod]

My issue is with using behavior, rather than its own merit, or lack thereof, as the basis for condeming theological thought.

Of necessity, this has taken me into barracuda waters, which I did not seek (I wonder if it's put on the table just to enflame), but which I must do to present the clear, plain Word of God unglossed.

You haven't done that yet though. You keep repeating the same anti-semitic diatribes of replacement theology that justifies murdering anyone who disagrees with replacement theology.

But we'll skip pointing out the obvious to you for now.

Behavior is the best (and only) judgement for what someone truly "believes" (has strong trust in). We are, in fact, commanded by the Word of God (in several places) to judge those in the body by their behavior, especially teachers.

It seems like someone with a grasp on the Word of God would already know that? If you need the references, I'll be happy to provide them since there are so many.

So, using the Word to judge the Word, Calvin probably isn't going to make it to the Kingdom. I'm not judging his salvation but comparing his works to the standards provided in the Word and he is found lacking in an important area of mercy, righteousness, truth, love.

It seems obvious to me that it's more important how we end the race, than how we began it.

[nebula]

"

Is what I said untrue?

Were they not the people of God nominated Israel prior to the exile, and nominated Israel and Judah after the exile?

Were the people of God nominated Judah a separate body of God's people from those nominated Israel?

The one people of God have been nominated Hebrews, Israel, Judah, Christians, Church over the ages. It is all one and the same people of God.

When something negative is said of "the Jews" you loudly proclaim it as "the Jews."

But when something positive is said about "Israel and Judah", you brush it off as symbolic.

I don't care how much fancy verbal footwork you do with this, the bottom line is that you have selected out "the Jews" to be regarded with special disfavor,

I understand there are strong feelings on this topic, but I would not be true to the Word of God if I altered it to accommodate strong feelings.

Keep in mind I did not bring it up, nor am I in the business of brushing off what is positive and proclaiming what is negative.

Yes, you did altar it - by claiming "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" do not mean "the house of Israel and the house of Judah".

When the word of God says, "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" it means "the house of Israel and the house of Judah", not "the people of God."

I am in the business here of addresing the condemnation of thelogical thought (the OP), not on the basis of its merit, but on the basis of behavior by the one who presents it.

2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Revelation 22:12 - "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done .

"Actions speak louder than words," and it is clear in the word of God that the Lord places great emphasis on behavior.

1 Cor. 14

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge ; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

And I agree with what Yod said:

"Behavior is the best (and only) judgement for what someone truly "believes" (has strong trust in). We are, in fact, commanded by the Word of God (in several places) to judge those in the body by their behavior, especially teachers."

Would you give merit to a theologian if he were a child molester? Would you even want to associate yourself with anything that bears his name?

I have no personal issue with Jews, because I believe God is sovereign, which means his will is done.

So, in other words, the real issue here is that you believe in Predestination, and throwing in this Strawman of "the Jews who murdered Jesus" was your way of diverting attention away from the evil deeds of Calvin onto the evil deeds of others (whom no one here has ever put on a pedestal, by the way) as a means to defend his theology.

Oh so subtly crafty!

Unfortunately for you, it hasn't worked.

[nebula]

even though Paul declares that there is are advantages and benefits to being a Jew (Romans 3:1,2).

This is part of a presentation by Paul on the unearned rightousness of God, which he prefaces with the hopeless condition of mankind.

He begins with the Gentiles, showing their godlessness and subjection to condemnation for suppressing the truth with their unrighteousness (1:18),

which blinded them to God's revelation of himself in creation (1:19-20), and which God judged by giving them over to sin, judging their sin with sin (1:21-32).

He then moves to the Jews, and shows they are no different because, due to their stubbornness and their unrepentant hearts (v.5), they are also under the wrath of God (2:1-5).

This, of course, raises the obvious question: if Jews are under the wrath of God as are the Gentiles, was there then anything good about the Jews?

His answer is yes, but it was not because of their own internal righteousness, it was because of the external advantage of God entrusting them with the very Words of God.

Having now shown that both Gentile and Jew are on the same footing, that both are under the wrath of God (1:18, 2:5) and in a hopeless condition,

Paul is now ready to present a righteousness from God apart from the law, which he does beginning at 3:21-25.

So his mention here of the advantages and benefits of being a Jew are in the context of both Gentile and Jew being on the same footing; i.e, under the wrath of God.

But then in ch. 11, it is mentioned not only how grace has been granted to the Gentiles on account of the Jews, but also how the redemption of the Jews is going to have even greater benefits to all. "What will their acceptance be but life from the dead!"

This isn't a salvation merit issue. It's a calling issue.

Using "fancy verbal footwork" as the reason, that the clear unglossed Word of God is not adressed, is beneath you, nebula.

You've been arguing like a lawyer. My head is still spinning trying to figure out your train of thought from what was presented to where you went with each argument.

Let me say again that I have no issue with the Jews.

You wanted us to condemn "the Jews who murdered Jesus."

"The Jews who murdered Jesus" were the Sanhedrin, and I have yet to hear a sermon or teaching that mentions them which does not speak against them. So in essence, your whole argument has no merit other than to paint a target on "the Jews."

My issue is with using behavior, rather than its own merit, or lack thereof, as the basis for condeming theological thought.

Of necessity, this has taken me into barracuda waters, which I did not seek (I wonder if it's put on the table just to enflame), but in which I must wade here in presenting the clear, plain Word of God unglossed.

As was mentioned, character (behavior) exposes the true heart of the person more so than any theological thought that comes out of a man's mouth and pen.

A theology written by a man who exhibits hatred through his actions is not a theology that expresses the heart of God, who is Love and "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2:4)

[nebula]

Yes, you did altar it - by claiming "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" do not mean "the house of Israel and the house of Judah".

When the word of God says, "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" it means "the house of Israel and the house of Judah", not "the people of God."

You aren't saying that Israel and Judah are not "the people of God," are you?

And if they are, then he was talking to "the people of God."

Why is that such a problem for you?

The problem is that you have mentally done this to the passage:

Jer. 31

31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah the people of God, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their [spiritual] fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel the people of God after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Were "the House of Israel the House of Judah" the people of God? Yes.

Are all of us who believe on Jesus the people of God? Yes.

Does this make us "the House of Israel and the House of Judah"? No.

Look at it this way -

Were the Jews the people of God? Yes.

Are we Gentiles who believe in Jesus the people of God? Yes.

Does this make Jews "Gentiles"? NO.

My problem is NOT with the word of God as you keep claiming.

My problem is with your handling of it.

I don't give merit to the theologian, I give merit or demerit to his thought, based strictly on its conformity to the Word of God.

James 3

12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs ? Nor can salt water produce fresh. 13 Who among you is wise and understanding ? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.

Predestination is not my idea. It's the Word of God's idea.

That's what I thought. This whole fiasco has been your way of defending Calvin's doctrine!

Oy vey! All that wasted time arguing a point that wasn't your true point.

[Guest]

.... Predestination is not my idea. It's the Word of God's idea.....

.... That's what I thought. This whole fiasco has been your way of defending Calvin's doctrine!

Oy vey! All that wasted time arguing a point that wasn't your true point.....

Gently

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 2 Timothy 2:24

With Love

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:15-18

And Be Wise Beloved

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Be Very Wise

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Your Brother Joe

[nebula]

Predestination is not my idea. It's the Word of God's idea.

That's what I thought.

If that is what you think, why do you call God's idea Calvin's idea?

I meant - I thought [just recently] that this was behind everything you have been arguing.

That wasn't an agreement to the statement.

.... Predestination is not my idea. It's the Word of God's idea.....

That's what I thought. This whole fiasco has been your way of defending Calvin's doctrine!

Oy vey! All that wasted time arguing a point that wasn't your true point.....

Gently . . . .

You're right, Joe.

I was expressing frustration that all this time I was in an argument about predestination without realizing it. I hate the debate. I said my piece on it at the beginning, and that is all I have to say on the matter. The debate, in my view, is pointless.

I was angry that Eleanor never expressed that she was arguing support for predestination. The subject(s), I thought, was Calvin and his actions and on how one regards the Jews. These were the points I was debating. If I knew her intention was to defend Calvinism behind all this, I may have debated differently, if at all.

(And yes, Eleanor, that's for your ears, too.)

In other words, I was momentarily going: