Sinners Saved by Grace

[NathanH]

I think it goes beyond "new man" versus "old man" also. What we see is that when we were "sinners" we were dead. Dead as in 'not alive'. What happened is that we were made alive. So, within us we were 'born again'.

It goes deep into the thought process of us realizing that we are souls who dwell in a body of flesh, and within our souls we(the 'new' man) now have a spirit. However, this "spirit" is apart of God.

We can no longer be sinners because sinners do not have a spirit that is alive. The spirit we have been given is referred to as a 'gift', it is called "life". The gift given to us was life - "new birth".

Rom 5:15-18 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Before we 'know' sin(it differs for us all) we were alive. However, once sin is 'known' we die. That is to say our bodies do not show the appearance of death, and the soul(who we really are) does not show the appearance of death, however, our spirit does. It is known as the "will". When man is dead, a sinner, he has no choice but to sin. However, when the spirit is alive we have "will", and the ability to choose between sin and that which is not.

That is how Adam and Eve were able to have the choice. And likewise, we have all had that choice in the beginning. However, the law shows us that we have the desire to sin and therefore we all will/have sinned. No one has the ability to not sin...except for One.

That one was Jesus. So, when we follow in His footsteps, and die on the cross, we die to sin. Therefore, we can no longer be deemed "sinners".

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Paul is very clear that it is impossible to live in sin(be a sinner) if we have died to it.

And as far as us saying "its our flesh who is a sinner, therefore we are still technically sinners"...

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

This is where people struggle. And this is where Paul tells us we have to start thinking like the "righteous". Because it is only then do we understand that we are not sinners, we do not have to sin, but we are righteous and can keep from sinning - sinning habitually.

When we have the mindset of we are still sinners "saved by grace" then we focus on that - 'that' being sin - and live like such.

However, when we have the mindset that we are the righteousness of Christ, then we focus on that and live like such.

There is a great analogy that helps to understand this dichotomy. I'll post it in a little bit.

Edited February 9, 2012 by NathanH

[nebula]

We still have two natures, that of a sinner and that of a saint.

And the one that we feed the most is the one that will be the stronger.

Scripture is replete with examples of the struggle between the two natures, between sin and grace, in the reborn.

Is this how you read Romans 6-8?

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then ? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase ? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin ; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again ; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all ; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness ; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Yes, there is a struggle between flesh and spirit - but which is the real you - the flesh man or the spirit man?

By calling yourself still a sinner, are you not in affect feeding (by acknowledging who is master) the flesh man?

Why not feed the spirit man by confessing yourself as who your spirit man is - alive in Christ & dead to sin, a saint, holy, righteous, etc.?

[NathanH]

Actually, that is not the case.

I know of no born again who, in understanding that the Word of God says they are sinners, then focus on sin.

They are focused on Jesus who saved them, gave them eternal life and a new nature which has more power than the old nature.

Some never do focus on it. There are some indeed who never look back and just keep going straight. But that does not mean that there are not those who do. Or, that it cannot happen. Those are the people Paul is addressing, the people who were struggling with the two natures.

I in no way mean to say that the born again believer is not able to sin, nor do I pretend that they are free from the temptation to sin. However, I will say to my dying day that the born again believer has been set free from the servitude of sin. Before a person is born again they have no choice but to sin, they are enslaved by it.

I know of quite a few people who focus on sin. But I think that we may be thinking about different definitions of this.

The analogy is like this;

Archery is a wonderful exercise of self-control, focus, and skillful training of ones body. When an archer draws and releases an arrow, there is much more to it than pulling back a string and then letting it go.

The master of archery is one who practices it every day. And not just every day, but throughout the day. It is something that you make apart of yourself. When an archer gets ready to shoot, the bow and arrow become an extension of who he is.

However, just like with anything else, you will never find an archer who even after spending day after day - year after year - will hit the mark exactly in the same spot he was aiming each time he shoots. In fact, archery is always based on the moment by moment time that you are shooting. And because no two moments in time and space are exactly alike, there is no way to ever prepare for anything that might happen.

So, the archer draws, anchors, picks a spot(mark), and releases. What happens? More often than not he misses the mark. But what comes next is what sets the amateurs apart from the true archers. The amateur looks at the spot he did hit and judges from it where he should aim next. But in doing so, he sets himself up for a unending cycle of never hitting the mark. Because he is not expecting to hit the mark he sets for the next shot, he is expecting to hit the mark he was looking at the first time. However, because no two moments in time are the same, he has ruled out any wind variation, humidity changes, changes in arrow weight, changes in draw length, changes in the anchor point, etc. The list goes on and on.

Contrast that with the master archer. He misses the mark on his first shot. What does he do? He forgets about that shot. He concentrates harder on the mark. He may very well miss again, but each time he shoots he concentrates harder and harder. He is able to do that because he never looses sight of the original mark.

The amateur cannot concentrate hard on the mark because the mark he looks too is always changing based upon where he hit last. Oh sure, he can see the original mark, but it does not mean as much to him as it does the master archer.

This is the Christian walk illustrated. There are many 'immature' Christians around because they do not keep Christ as their one and only mark in focus. They walk along, they sin, they look at the sin and say "I don't want to do that". So they look at that sin, examine it, see what they did 'wrong', and then try to avoid it in the future.

The fallacy in this is they use their judgement in trying to figure out what they did wrong. There are so many things that it could be. And even worse, a lot of the time they will look to others to see what direction they should go in to keep it from happening again.

But the mature Christian looks at the sin he commits and says, Jesus. Then turns from it(repentance) and never looks back. That is what repentance is, it is a turning away from. And if you turn away from something, tell me, how can you still see it?

Keep one focus, and one focus only. Jesus the Christ...His righteousness imputed onto you. The more this is your focus, the more times you will hit closer to the mark. But when one associates themselves with being a sinner, then they are associating themselves with the natural man and not the spiritual. These two are contrary to one another and cannot be focused on together. Its one or the other. And like it or not, you have to choose between the two.

Edited February 9, 2012 by NathanH

[traveller]

I like that analogy NathanH. Nice.

[NathanH]

I like that analogy NathanH. Nice.

I got a good one that deals with purity too. lol. I work in the water industry and have learned a thing or two about purity. But thats a different topic, although closely related.

[NathanH]

Ronnie is not a sinner - final answer. [Ronnie is me, btw]

Whats funny is that when I finally came to this conclusion I almost had a t-shirt printed that said "I am not a sinner!". I thought it would be an interesting thing to wear out and see just how many people stopped me, and of those how many were believers and how many were not.

[nebula]

Thanks for the archery analysis, Nathan!

I need to remember that. I'm guilty of getting stuck in trying not to repeat the mistake rather than setting my eye on the mark.

This puts it all in a new perspective for me.

Thanks!

[NathanH]

Well, actually, what feeds the spirit man is not yielding to the flesh man (Ro 7:12-14).

Please do not take this the wrong way. I do not understand how that passage talks about "feeding" the spirit. In fact, we cannot feed anything, but rather God feeds us. His Spirit in us is what gives us strength

Ephesians 3:14-19 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith-that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

His Spirit feeds us and strengthens us only when we are focused on Him, not on ANYthing else. In fact, we can only receive 'nutrition' when we are focused on him. Looking to, in order to avoid, the flesh man will only serve to take our eyes off Christ.

Think about it. The flesh man and the spiritual are opposed to one another. If your looking at one, then your back is to the other.

[He giveth more grace]

We still have two natures, that of a sinner and that of a saint.

And the one that we feed the most is the one that will be the stronger.

Scripture is replete with examples of the struggle between the two natures, between sin and grace, in the reborn.

Is this how you read Romans 6-8?

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then ? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase ? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin ; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again ; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all ; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness ; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Yes, there is a struggle between flesh and spirit - but which is the real you - the flesh man or the spirit man?

By calling yourself still a sinner, are you not in affect feeding (by acknowledging who is master) the flesh man?

Why not feed the spirit man by confessing yourself as who your spirit man is - alive in Christ & dead to sin, a saint, holy, righteous, etc.?

Wow, Neb, are you a preacher or something! That was just excellent.

[He giveth more grace]

We hear a phrase once is a great while - "sinner saved by grace". Are we really?

There is "Sin" meaning who we are and "sin" meaning what we do. I can't take the time to research the Strong numbers for the two words are quote from "Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Word" this morning. If we are still sinners then what kind of victory is that and what part of "more than Conquerors" don't we understand.

Yes, I commit acts of sins, covertly and overtly, but it does not defind who I am. OK, I admit without Christ in me I can't stand in God's presense one day - I would be a Sinner, but I have passed from Death unto Life and I am a New Creature in Christ, the "old things" have passed away and all things have become "New". What part of "New Creature" don't we understand?

Monarchy, this may surprise you, but I agree wholeheartedly with what you just said.

OK! I have about a 60-40 hit-miss ratio (60% right / 40% error) No, I don't know. I do purport to know more that I actually do.