The Church, Israel and spiritual gifts.

[Zemke]

I've recently noticed in Romans, 1 Corinthians and Ephesians before Paul speaks of spiritual gifts he, in some way, speaks of our relationship with Israel and who we are as the church.

He also has both listed in things not to be ignorant of. Romans 11:25, 1Corinthians 10:1, 1Corinthians 12:1

What's your ideas on their connection?

[mizzdy]

In 1 Cor. 10 we are being warned that even though those first Israelites came out of the desert in faith that faith was weak, they saw His miracles, was part of one of the greatest miracles of all at that time and still their hearts were far from Him. Then we see the second generation that learned to trust, have faith daily, God taught them what it was like to walk in His ways just as He now does today through His Spirit. Just because we get 'saved' doesnt mean we have learned to walk correctly and thats what He shows us how to do.

My thoughts about who Israel is and the church is not a popular one here but I firmly believe we are all Israel, all who are faithful who confess His name and obey His ways. And don't we truly see that by those who walked through the Jordan, Caleb was not an Israelite yet God saw a 'diiferent' spirit one that wanted to know and obey God. I see us all much like Caleb, a Kenizzite, a gentile found worthy grafted into Judah and became someone God loved and called upon, he was grafted into Israel because of His faith. If we are walking with the Spirit guiding us we will be producing the fruits, we can call upon His Name and His power though the gifts He gives us. My take on it all.

shalom,

Mizz

[Zemke]

In 1 Cor. 10 we are being warned that even though those first Israelites came out of the desert in faith that faith was weak, they saw His miracles, was part of one of the greatest miracles of all at that time and still their hearts were far from Him. Then we see the second generation that learned to trust, have faith daily, God taught them what it was like to walk in His ways just as He now does today through His Spirit. Just because we get 'saved' doesnt mean we have learned to walk correctly and thats what He shows us how to do.

My thoughts about who Israel is and the church is not a popular one here but I firmly believe we are all Israel, all who are faithful who confess His name and obey His ways. And don't we truly see that by those who walked through the Jordan, Caleb was not an Israelite yet God saw a 'diiferent' spirit one that wanted to know and obey God. I see us all much like Caleb, a Kenizzite, a gentile found worthy grafted into Judah and became someone God loved and called upon, he was grafted into Israel because of His faith. If we are walking with the Spirit guiding us we will be producing the fruits, we can call upon His Name and His power though the gifts He gives us. My take on it all.

shalom,

Mizz

I like your answer, especially about Caleb. I too hold to a grafting in and adoption into the tree as being a part of Israel but clearly in a different dispensation, a new thing, not separate from but a continuation of Gods plan. Ephesians, Jew and Gentile become one bringing about peace. I know it isn't popular because of replacement theology but if we know who we are then how could we ever replace or be anti semetic.

Anyway my question is more toward having a better grasp on understanding spiritual gifts. Before Paul speaks of gifts, he speaks of these things, grafting in, adoption, new man, they had baptism and Christ with them as do we etc. The studies I've been a part of have concentrated on each gift like a word study. Good stuff but haven't seen much fruit in us further past the study's.

The early church knew who they were and the Spirit then is the same Spirit today. Can we really grasp Spiritual gifting without grasping and walking in who we are, where we have come from and interestingly enough where we are going? Paul also writes for us not to be ignorant about the coming of our Lord, the resurrection.

I know that many works and church movements have happened without all knowledge because of the love of Christ but the next generation falls into theological scrabble.

I hope this is making sense. Seems to be a flow and connection with these things. Paul said not to be ignorant about these things so I really don't wanna be.

[Zemke]

In 1 Cor. 10 we are being warned that even though those first Israelites came out of the desert in faith that faith was weak, they saw His miracles, was part of one of the greatest miracles of all at that time and still their hearts were far from Him. Then we see the second generation that learned to trust, have faith daily, God taught them what it was like to walk in His ways just as He now does today through His Spirit. Just because we get 'saved' doesnt mean we have learned to walk correctly and thats what He shows us how to do.

My thoughts about who Israel is and the church is not a popular one here but I firmly believe we are all Israel, all who are faithful who confess His name and obey His ways. And don't we truly see that by those who walked through the Jordan, Caleb was not an Israelite yet God saw a 'diiferent' spirit one that wanted to know and obey God. I see us all much like Caleb, a Kenizzite, a gentile found worthy grafted into Judah and became someone God loved and called upon, he was grafted into Israel because of His faith. If we are walking with the Spirit guiding us we will be producing the fruits, we can call upon His Name and His power though the gifts He gives us. My take on it all.

shalom,

Mizz

Hi Mizz, Your answer about 1Cor. fits the context of food sacrificed unto idols and our liberty in Christ. It does set a stage for speaking about spiritual gifts also.

Maybe I'm over thinking there is a deeper connection. But I found it interesting Paul speaks about our relationship with Israel in all three places before he speaks of gifting and they are both on his list of things not to be ignorant of.

[NathanH]

Anyway my question is more toward having a better grasp on understanding spiritual gifts. Before Paul speaks of gifts, he speaks of these things, grafting in, adoption, new man, they had baptism and Christ with them as do we etc. The studies I've been a part of have concentrated on each gift like a word study. Good stuff but haven't seen much fruit in us further past the study's.

The early church knew who they were and the Spirit then is the same Spirit today. Can we really grasp Spiritual gifting without grasping and walking in who we are, where we have come from and interestingly enough where we are going? Paul also writes for us not to be ignorant about the coming of our Lord, the resurrection.

I know that many works and church movements have happened without all knowledge because of the love of Christ but the next generation falls into theological scrabble.

I hope this is making sense. Seems to be a flow and connection with these things. Paul said not to be ignorant about these things so I really don't wanna be.

I think I may be following you here. And I think it could be interesting to look at the way a plant produces fruit. The gifts in us are the "seed". God gives them - plants them.

Through theses seeds, plants start to grow. And then eventually, hopefully, they produce fruit.

The connection I think your seeking is the 'medium' of what the seeds are planted in. In order for a seed to become a healthy and fruit producing plant, they must be planted in good soil. Israel is God's good soil.

Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature

This was good soil man was created from. A lot of symbolism here, but ponder on it.

Isa 5:1-7 Let me sing for my beloved my love song concerning his vineyard: My beloved had a vineyard on a very fertile hill. He dug it and cleared it of stones, and planted it with choice vines; he built a watchtower in the midst of it, and hewed out a wine vat in it; and he looked for it to yield grapes, but it yielded wild grapes. And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard. What more was there to do for my vineyard, that I have not done in it? When I looked for it to yield grapes, why did it yield wild grapes? And now I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard. I will remove its hedge, and it shall be devoured; I will break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. I will make it a waste; it shall not be pruned or hoed, and briers and thorns shall grow up; I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are his pleasant planting; and he looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed; for righteousness, but behold, an outcry!

[NathanH]

Notice the distinction between the "vineyard" (which is the soil), and the "planting" (which is the seed/plant). The soil is good, but the plants grew up bad. There was nothing more He could have done with the soil, it is what it is. (Matthew 13)

The early disciples were "naturally" apart of this good soil, Israel. Not from physical birth, but through heritage of the things God entrusted Israel with.

Rom 3:1-2 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.

They(the disciples) had 'good soil', so therefore the seeds planted within them produced major fruit, as seen from what was written about them. We even see this evident with the early gentile believers.

Act 15:19-21 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.

The Gentile believers had been in the process of having their 'hearts'(soil) worked over by the Word of God. We see this evident in the fact that they would go to the synagogue on the Sabbath to hear what was being taught.

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.

[Zemke]

Anyway my question is more toward having a better grasp on understanding spiritual gifts. Before Paul speaks of gifts, he speaks of these things, grafting in, adoption, new man, they had baptism and Christ with them as do we etc. The studies I've been a part of have concentrated on each gift like a word study. Good stuff but haven't seen much fruit in us further past the study's.

The early church knew who they were and the Spirit then is the same Spirit today. Can we really grasp Spiritual gifting without grasping and walking in who we are, where we have come from and interestingly enough where we are going? Paul also writes for us not to be ignorant about the coming of our Lord, the resurrection.

I know that many works and church movements have happened without all knowledge because of the love of Christ but the next generation falls into theological scrabble.

I hope this is making sense. Seems to be a flow and connection with these things. Paul said not to be ignorant about these things so I really don't wanna be.

I think I may be following you here. And I think it could be interesting to look at the way a plant produces fruit. The gifts in us are the "seed". God gives them - plants them.

Through theses seeds, plants start to grow. And then eventually, hopefully, they produce fruit.

The connection I think your seeking is the 'medium' of what the seeds are planted in. In order for a seed to become a healthy and fruit producing plant, they must be planted in good soil. Israel is God's good soil.

Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature

This was good soil man was created from. A lot of symbolism here, but ponder on it.

Isa 5:1-7 Let me sing for my beloved my love song concerning his vineyard: My beloved had a vineyard on a very fertile hill. He dug it and cleared it of stones, and planted it with choice vines; he built a watchtower in the midst of it, and hewed out a wine vat in it; and he looked for it to yield grapes, but it yielded wild grapes. And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard. What more was there to do for my vineyard, that I have not done in it? When I looked for it to yield grapes, why did it yield wild grapes? And now I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard. I will remove its hedge, and it shall be devoured; I will break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. I will make it a waste; it shall not be pruned or hoed, and briers and thorns shall grow up; I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are his pleasant planting; and he looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed; for righteousness, but behold, an outcry!

Thanks, wonderfully convicting. I believe Mizz is saying the same thing about 1 Corinthians.

More please.

I'm not sure what to say, just yet, so I will ponder on it.

[NathanH]

Thanks, wonderfully convicting. I believe Mizz is saying the same thing about 1 Corinthians.

More please.

I'm not sure what to say, just yet, so I will ponder on it.

Yes, I think that it falls directly in line with what Mizz is saying. This is just my way of seeing it laid out. There is much, much more there to explore and see. It would take pages upon pages to lay out all the facts that point to us (believers) being a part of Israel - rather "Israel" as God has deemed it. Not replacement, just fulfillment theology.

And I think what Mizz is pointing out, and what Paul was saying(which is where your question stems from), is that the gifts and fruit can only be found in good soil. And when 'rooted' in that soil, the believer - the called out one(church) - the Israelite(God prevails) - produces fruit from the specific gifts planted in them. But if we have no understanding of who we are, what we are a part of, then we will have no idea of the true identity of the fruit being produced.

The idea is that there is a lot of "fruit" being produced in the world today by professing Christians. However, while it looks good, it is not. Only that fruit that comes from the seed, and wonderful care of the Spirit, produces good fruit. And it is distinguished by comparison to known good fruit.

I am sure you have seen 'fake' fruit before. It can be very deceptive. Also, there is 'hybrid' fruit. But the sure fire way of knowing really good fruit from bad fruit is the ability of it to reproduce. This is where being grafted into the "good" olive tree analogy, from Paul, comes into play. Once grafted in we are "one" with the tree. And the fruit produced gets its source from the roots of the tree, not the branches. The branches(us) simply bear the fruit.

Jhn 15:4-5 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

[NathanH]

This is where people can get mixed up real easy. See, Jesus, the Christ, was and is, Israel. He is Israel. Not a nation, not a people, not a doctrine, and not a system of beliefs.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

However, we know that those things that Christ taught -old and new- are the fertile soil that good fruit grows in. Therefore, whatever grows from this soil is true Israel.

[mizzdy]

This is where people can get mixed up real easy. See, Jesus, the Christ, was and is, Israel. He is Israel. Not a nation, not a people, not a doctrine, and not a system of beliefs.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

However, we know that those things that Christ taught -old and new- are the fertile soil that good fruit grows in. Therefore, whatever grows from this soil is true Israel.

I do like the way you put that He is Israel, if we are His and the Spirit is dwelling within us we are Israel. We are told theres no more Jew or Greek in Him, even though we know there are gates with the names of the tribes we like Caleb will be added to those who already existed who like Abraham had faith in God, had faith the Messiah would come just as Yah promised. Its not hard to understand if we take away the last couple thousands of years of theology that separate everyone into different bodies and such, there is only one, His.

shalom,

Mizz