The "Old Testament"

[jasoncran]

most christians dont follow the kosher laws nor do the feasts. one can be a christian and do these things but really if one is to do that you will stand out from the typical gentile/greek thinking christian. i am going through this. i cringe when my pastors say the torah was a bondage when it was done right it set mean free as god used that to call out isreal from the egyptian bondage.

You are aware that your pastor is getting that from Gal 4:21-31, right?

i know where he gets that from but understand the first audience and why paul said that. the pharisee werent real jews in alot ways. this is why the history of the culture and events when christ came and between malachi is important to understand.

the pharisees ADDED HARDSHIP UNTIL THE LAW. DID JESUS ever say the shabat was bad? did he ever say that doing the law was hard? NO he corrected them on the law and then said the changes are coming.

why then would God say my commands are not grievous? and also give commands knowingly that we cant do them? so in the tanach god is cruel and in the nt he is nice? this is the dichtomy that i dislike.God didnt change he change the way to be forgiven but not his nature. he was as merciful then as he is now. if you doubt that then kindly quote the psalms where it says god mercy endures forever and in the torah and in exodus moses even says GOD is merciful.

[jasoncran]

so the law wasnt a way by to live for god?

so in this age of grace theres no commands to be holy and list of sins?

i can sin all i want once say im a sinner and i repent? theres no well if you continue that you wont be in heaven?

and david commited adultery and also did god kill him?

no he didnt he spared him yet david was worthy of death. the law (which i figured you know) demanded his death. he lied and commited murder. yet no such animal sacrifice. the law wasnt to give one faith just show you how you needed to lean on the YHWH.

if you doubt that

exodus 34:36

And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

kjv

so god changed and moses and prophets didnt go to god for mercy, i never said that law made on right only that it wasnt a burdon.

so i guess nemehiah lied when he said the joy of the lord is our strength. how could such burdensome men be happy in the lord and what of the worship by king david.

no grace existed then? noah found grace in sight of god. job sinned and found mercy. daniel as well. he prayed and faced jersusalem when he prayed and prayed as if he was guilty of sin.

why was the law given to the hebrews on sinai?

[jasoncran]

curse eh? let me list what the law did do. why did the jew stick out in that world then? you do realise that hebrews did stick out and in general werent like the nations around them when they did follow the law(im not talking about them all but the faithful remnant)

why then would god say this as you say make it impossible to be free? and then do this in the nt.

revaletion 2

24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28And I will give him the morning star.

29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

if we cant do that then why does jesus say that? its impossible for us to be that holy then isnt it, yet christ commands us to be holy and pure. and how do we do that? we lean on jesus.

[~candice~]

I guess I would view the Noahic covenant as not pertaining to salvation, per se.

So I guess I don't view all the covenants as soteriological.

...

However, the notion of soteriological and non-soteriological prophecies and covenants is totally new to me, since I have seen nothing in the NT didactics that would cause me to look into such a notion.

Hi Eleanor,

Sorry I don't have much time so I'll just address this. I also do not believe that all covenants are soteriological, but there are some who believe all covenants are just the covenant of grace cleverly disguised, as a progressive revelation sort of thing. Hence they believe that because the most revealed form of the covenant of grace is in the NT, they avoid all of the OT. So if you were wondering how my question related to the OP, there ya go.

Candice

are you talking about the land promise to isreal? or the idea that the feasts are perpetual?

The land promise to Israel is the Abrahamic Covenant, not the "Old Covenant". Their ability to live in their and is the "Palestinian Covenant". The feasts are still perpetual.

Palestinian covenant? where is that? I see Gods promise to bring them back into that land that belongs to Him, there is no such thing as palestinian covenant, not in Due. 29 which is where every single person suggesting this takes the idea from.

shalom,

Mizz

You don't believe in a PA? My understanding of a PA is just Israel's right (or the conditions under which) they can actually live in the land given to them. I've honestly never met a messianic who doesn't believe in a PA.

to the messainic jews.

if the third temple is built and the rosh hoshana is fully done as it was in the days of moses and the prophets would you partake in such a thing?

relavant question since the feasts are perpetual per candice.

I'm stumbling over my words a little. When I replied to your first post it was just to say that the timing of the feasts didn't stop being yearly. I fully understand it is a shadow of what HAS come, though some people who like to experience via doing still participate in those feasts and I have no issue with that in the slightest.

[jasoncran]

you will find that im the least legalistic of these messanics. i dont push kosher laws nor promote them nor the shabat. but i understand the history of isreal and what the law was for given what isreal was redeemed from and why. the hebrews then were in a hedonistic society as slaves where homosexuality, fornacation and adultery reigned and also idolatry. so that make sense in why god said dont do them.

i came from that background as i was a male bisexual that struggled with pornagraphy. i still struggle with that and in the ane a man and one women and marriage to a woman and they way the jews lifted up marriage is simply unheard of.

[jasoncran]

I guess I would view the Noahic covenant as not pertaining to salvation, per se.

So I guess I don't view all the covenants as soteriological.

...

However, the notion of soteriological and non-soteriological prophecies and covenants is totally new to me, since I have seen nothing in the NT didactics that would cause me to look into such a notion.

Hi Eleanor,

Sorry I don't have much time so I'll just address this. I also do not believe that all covenants are soteriological, but there are some who believe all covenants are just the covenant of grace cleverly disguised, as a progressive revelation sort of thing. Hence they believe that because the most revealed form of the covenant of grace is in the NT, they avoid all of the OT. So if you were wondering how my question related to the OP, there ya go.

Candice

are you talking about the land promise to isreal? or the idea that the feasts are perpetual?

The land promise to Israel is the Abrahamic Covenant, not the "Old Covenant". Their ability to live in their and is the "Palestinian Covenant". The feasts are still perpetual.

Palestinian covenant? where is that? I see Gods promise to bring them back into that land that belongs to Him, there is no such thing as palestinian covenant, not in Due. 29 which is where every single person suggesting this takes the idea from.

shalom,

Mizz

You don't believe in a PA? My understanding of a PA is just Israel's right (or the conditions under which) they can actually live in the land given to them. I've honestly never met a messianic who doesn't believe in a PA.

to the messainic jews.

if the third temple is built and the rosh hoshana is fully done as it was in the days of moses and the prophets would you partake in such a thing?

relavant question since the feasts are perpetual per candice.

I'm stumbling over my words a little. When I replied to your first post it was just to say that the timing of the feasts didn't stop being yearly. I fully understand it is a shadow of what HAS come, though some people who like to experience via doing still participate in those feasts and I have no issue with that in the slightest.

so if modern judiasm has a call to the temple for passover and the sanhedrin say bring an unblemish lamb then you wont have a problem?

what about daily obligations ?

[~candice~]

I guess I would view the Noahic covenant as not pertaining to salvation, per se.

So I guess I don't view all the covenants as soteriological.

Eleanor, am I supposed to read this to mean that all other covenants are soteriological?

[~candice~]

so if modern judiasm has a call to the temple for passover and the sanhedrin say bring an unblemish lamb then you wont have a problem?

what about daily obligations ?

There's no temple .

I think modern day Judaism has strayed a long way from it's biblical roots. I have no issue if people today want to participate in the yearly feasts. Let them celebrate. That's all I ever meant.

[jasoncran]

i never said we should be under the law. i agree and see why it failed. where i disagree with you is that the law is a burden. grace existed before christ if you doubt then why didnt god demand an animal sacrifice from the men of niveheh? or what about and noah found grace in eyes of god?

the law wasnt that hard to follow in those days. if it was why then would god make such a hard demand when he knew we could follow it? you do realise that is from the a heresy that a catholic brought to my attention. god doesnt ask us to do something we cant do. we can repent and live and seek him and he will grant us mercy. if its all grace and no works then why the warnings that i listed on failure to do those things in revalation from christ.

we can be good enough but that doesnt mean we cant and shouldnt seek mercy. the church does a poor job of teaching grace and works.its either grace only and no works and works and no grace when its really both. we get grace and by that we do works as evidence of that act.

john the apostle says the commands of christ arent grievious and what was his commands.(hint they are based on the first two commandments) odd aint it??

1 john 5

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

[~candice~]

i agree and see why it failed. where i disagree with you is that the law is a burden.

Who is this directed to?