Why I cringe when people say it is all about choice

[childeye]

Why I cringe at your post

I child:

You like arguments and I guess that is fair in this forum. But what I have against you is that you don’t disclose your thought process from the beginning. Your first post should have included “Romans (some people here may have read it).” Yes if your ‘e buried with Christ, and if you let Christ grow within yourself and let the Holy Spirit enter into you (that is obeying the choice of God), you have no will and amazingly a point; but as many people have suggested Christ is not as quick an automatic as a microwave. Christ is not instant gratification as the culture teaches. Christianity has a believer, but your words – in my opinion - reject Him, Oh, I know, you don’t do nothing of the sort.

I will say this for the benefit of those reading the posts and that is there is God’s will, there is satan’s will and there is man’s will. Have you not read history and then dare attribute it to God. If there was no free will, by no means would God let go of Adam. For the intelligent readers, the history, the world is written in man’s bloody will. Are the concentration camps, the Spanish inquisition a part of God? For if it is God’s will, it will remain in God’s hands and there is no one to blame but God. However even Job knew the rules better than you. I read the first few pages of your post and it seems that you are of that awful tribe that feels, well everyone was wrong before me and I have discovered a new way. This is not just; it's vanity of pride akin to evil.

Oak

PS Why do you waste the time of people that seek God?

Thanks for your sincere response. I must have missed your post and I apologize for responding so late. It appears to me you do not understand my position. First off, I do not like arguments. It is contrary to the law of Christ which desires to Love your neighbor as yourself. I would not like anyone to argue with me for the sake of arguing and I never would apply such an accusation to anyone else, but I would appreciate someone correcting me. And so I assume you wish to correct me. I am all ears.

You have said that in your opinion I reject the Christ, the True Image of God sent by God. I don't see how you come to that conclusion. I am not sure why you ponit out that people have suggested the growth in Christ is noit automatiic. I never suggested it was. You seem to think I deny that men have a will. However I believe if I had no will, I would not be alive or sentient. You also speak of the world being written in man's bloody will. I do not disagree with that. I am not denying man has a will or the ability of decision. I have not discovered a new way. The scripture provided at the outset of this thread is one of many that support the basis for my conviction. Hence there is no new way to discover, Christ is the Truth and the way. I encourage you to write some more, but it is clear to me you have misunderstood things I have said. Perhaps I can clarify any statements that trouble you.

[Floatingaxe]

I don't miss it, everyone goes down a path. Like sheep we have all gone our own ways, but the good shepherd leads his sheep and they follow only him and will not follow another. As for you saying that scripture points to man choosing the right way. It also speaks of man choosing the wrong way. Knowing the way is knowing the Christ.

Exactly!!! You're getting there.

I think repentance is turning unto God with all your heart and following Christ is carrying your own cross. All of this is about faith, not about having the ability to choose. One must have Love to know Love. From faith to faith.

Repentance is turning away from the direction you are walking in---sinning---and walking in another direction. Carrying one's cross is obedience to God. It is by faith that we have the power to choose which direction to walk. It is by that same choice that we obey God and pick up our cross and follow Jesus. It is simple.

[Floatingaxe]

Speaking earlier of the prodigal son, even he exercised his own free will:

Luke 15:18

I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you,

He excercised his will both when he left his Fathers house and when he returned. In fact a man as long as he is alive is excercising his will. But the will is subject to ignorance and knowledge and so the term free is relative. It is impossible to conclude that his choice was not influenced by any perceived necessity. Luke 15:17

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!

The prodigal, like anyone else steeped in sin, can choose to stay in his mess and die there.

[childeye]

Free will is mentioned few times in scripture which do qualify. The Hebrew says "for-acceptance-of-you" H7522. If you use the NKJV, free will can be found many times: Leviticus 1:3; Leviticus 19:5; Leviticus 22:19; Leviticus 22:29.

H7522

1) pleasure, delight, favour, goodwill, acceptance, will

.....a) goodwill, favour

.....b) acceptance

.....c) will, desire, pleasure, self-wil

Consider Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen." Do you agree that those who are called freely rejected the invitation through their own will?

I am aware of all these referances to what has been translated as freewill in scripture. All of these definitions are no different than the word voluntary or willingly. It is interesting that you say "for acceptance of you". I have never heard that. I assume it is for acceptance of the one that voluntarily offers. I think this is meant tp point out a willing offering from what would be a grudging offering. I do not disagree that such uses of the term would qualify. However I do not see how they imply responsibility as in blame for knowing what you are doing.

The theology of freewill however as an absolute that claims men possess a single freewill that is both moral voluntarily and immoral voluntarily does not qualify. Since the carnal mind willingly and voluntarily values carnal things, it is a servant of sin because of the flesh, and serves the will of the flesh. Shall I call the will of the flesh man's freewill? And we know the flesh wars with the spirit of man so that the inner man does delight in the laws of God but is in conflict with his own flesh. To me this is what would be the freewill of the man trapped in a body of death. Then there is the devil, who holds mens minds captive at his will wherein they do what they think is right, but it's path ultimately leads unto destruction. This is much like the will of the flesh wherein there is both temptation and accusation. The word of God is sharper than any two edged sword able to divide body and soul. I believe in the liberty of being subject to Christ lies in one direction towards life and therefore cannot count that will that was subject to sin as liberty. Freedom is in one direction not both. But it is the Word of God we should not take for granted.

Many are called but few are chosen. This is a spot on question regarding this thread in regqards to vanity. Of course many of the last will be first and the first will be last, and they were all willing in their roles. There were ones that took God for granted and disregarded the invitation, and ones who rejoiced to be invited. Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated. Of course they rejected the wedding invitation by their own wills. But this was vanity, since they were unthankful. And of course the cripples and beggars gladly accepted because they were beggars and cripples. God's house will be full.

Matthew 13:47-48

The Parable of the Net

47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. The angels did the deciding here not the fishes.

[childeye]

Speaking earlier of the prodigal son, even he exercised his own free will:

Luke 15:18

I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you,

He excercised his will both when he left his Fathers house and when he returned. In fact a man as long as he is alive is excercising his will. But the will is subject to ignorance and knowledge and so the term free is relative. It is impossible to conclude that his choice was not influenced by any perceived necessity. Luke 15:17

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!

The prodigal, like anyone else steeped in sin, can choose to stay in his mess and die there.

Floatingaxe, I can't help but laugh at this comment. I doubt this represents the sentiments of the prodigal son's Father, and I don't see it as the lesson of the parable.

[childeye]

I don't miss it, everyone goes down a path. Like sheep we have all gone our own ways, but the good shepherd leads his sheep and they follow only him and will not follow another. As for you saying that scripture points to man choosing the right way. It also speaks of man choosing the wrong way. Knowing the way is knowing the Christ.

Exactly!!! You're getting there.

I told you I didn't miss it.

I think repentance is turning unto God with all your heart and following Christ is carrying your own cross. All of this is about faith, not about having the ability to choose. One must have Love to know Love. From faith to faith.

Repentance is turning away from the direction you are walking in---sinning---and walking in another direction. Carrying one's cross is obedience to God. It is by faith that we have the power to choose which direction to walk. It is by that same choice that we obey God and pick up our cross and follow Jesus. It is simple.

One correction. You said it is by faith we have the power to choose which direction we walk. I would have said it is by faith we choose to follow the Christ. Perhaps I misunderstood you, but to choose other than to follow the Christ would not be faith. Other than that I agree whole heartedly. Faith precedes the decision to follow Christ and lack of faith precedes the decision to not follow Christ.

[Floatingaxe]

I don't miss it, everyone goes down a path. Like sheep we have all gone our own ways, but the good shepherd leads his sheep and they follow only him and will not follow another. As for you saying that scripture points to man choosing the right way. It also speaks of man choosing the wrong way. Knowing the way is knowing the Christ.

Exactly!!! You're getting there.

I told you I didn't miss it.

I think repentance is turning unto God with all your heart and following Christ is carrying your own cross. All of this is about faith, not about having the ability to choose. One must have Love to know Love. From faith to faith.

Repentance is turning away from the direction you are walking in---sinning---and walking in another direction. Carrying one's cross is obedience to God. It is by faith that we have the power to choose which direction to walk. It is by that same choice that we obey God and pick up our cross and follow Jesus. It is simple.

One correction. You said it is by faith we have the power to choose which direction we walk. I would have said it is by faith we choose to follow the Christ. Perhaps I misunderstood you, but to choose other than to follow the Christ would not be faith. Other than that I agree whole heartedly. Faith precedes the decision to follow Christ and lack of faith precedes the decision to not follow Christ.

When faith comes, that is when we are empowered to choose Christ. We can never follow through in a choice to follow Christ without faith.

[childeye]

I can see what you are saying, but tell me this, who truly understands God? I say nobody, so who makes a pure decision? That said, through our free will, we do our best to follow God or not.

It sounds to me like you have just said forgive them, for they know not what they do, and forgive me because I'm not sure I do either.

But we do know to love others as we would want to be loved. Our wills are ever subject to that Truth or we become hypocrits in our reasoning.. We should at least admit we know that.

[OneLight]

Free will is mentioned few times in scripture which do qualify. The Hebrew says "for-acceptance-of-you" H7522. If you use the NKJV, free will can be found many times: Leviticus 1:3; Leviticus 19:5; Leviticus 22:19; Leviticus 22:29.

H7522

1) pleasure, delight, favour, goodwill, acceptance, will

.....a) goodwill, favour

.....b) acceptance

.....c) will, desire, pleasure, self-wil

Consider Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen." Do you agree that those who are called freely rejected the invitation through their own will?

I am aware of all these referances to what has been translated as freewill in scripture. All of these definitions are no different than the word voluntary or willingly. It is interesting that you say "for acceptance of you". I have never heard that. I assume it is for acceptance of the one that voluntarily offers. I think this is meant tp point out a willing offering from what would be a grudging offering. I do not disagree that such uses of the term would qualify. However I do not see how they imply responsibility as in blame for knowing what you are doing.

Have you ever used this application? scritpture4all It is a Greek / Hebrew interlinear Bible software and it has both an online application or one you can download. I use this every time I study and reference scripture to have a better understanding of what was meant and how it was written.

The theology of freewill however as an absolute that claims men possess a single freewill that is both moral voluntarily and immoral voluntarily does not qualify. Since the carnal mind willingly and voluntarily values carnal things, it is a servant of sin because of the flesh, and serves the will of the flesh. Shall I call the will of the flesh man's freewill? And we know the flesh wars with the spirit of man so that the inner man does delight in the laws of God but is in conflict with his own flesh. To me this is what would be the freewill of the man trapped in a body of death. Then there is the devil, who holds mens minds captive at his will wherein they do what they think is right, but it's path ultimately leads unto destruction. This is much like the will of the flesh wherein there is both temptation and accusation. The word of God is sharper than any two edged sword able to divide body and soul. I believe in the liberty of being subject to Christ lies in one direction towards life and therefore cannot count that will that was subject to sin as liberty. Freedom is in one direction not both. But it is the Word of God we should not take for granted.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I see free will as the ability to freely decide, both right and wrong. Nothing in this life goes uninfluenced. We work with what we have, but we still have the ability to freely choose.

Many are called but few are chosen. This is a spot on question regarding this thread in regqards to vanity. Of course many of the last will be first and the first will be last, and they were all willing in their roles. There were ones that took God for granted and disregarded the invitation, and ones who rejoiced to be invited. Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated. Of course they rejected the wedding invitation by their own wills. But this was vanity, since they were unthankful. And of course the cripples and beggars gladly accepted because they were beggars and cripples. God's house will be full.

Matthew 13:47-48

The Parable of the Net

47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. The angels did the deciding here not the fishes.

I like parables. They hold deep meanings. I also like straight text, as in Revelation 20:11-15 (NKJV)

The Great White Throne Judgment

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

and ...

Matthew 12:36

But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

I've enjoyed our renewed discussion!

[childeye]

I don't miss it, everyone goes down a path. Like sheep we have all gone our own ways, but the good shepherd leads his sheep and they follow only him and will not follow another. As for you saying that scripture points to man choosing the right way. It also speaks of man choosing the wrong way. Knowing the way is knowing the Christ.

Exactly!!! You're getting there.

I told you I didn't miss it.

I think repentance is turning unto God with all your heart and following Christ is carrying your own cross. All of this is about faith, not about having the ability to choose. One must have Love to know Love. From faith to faith.

Repentance is turning away from the direction you are walking in---sinning---and walking in another direction. Carrying one's cross is obedience to God. It is by faith that we have the power to choose which direction to walk. It is by that same choice that we obey God and pick up our cross and follow Jesus. It is simple.

One correction. You said it is by faith we have the power to choose which direction we walk. I would have said it is by faith we choose to follow the Christ. Perhaps I misunderstood you, but to choose other than to follow the Christ would not be faith. Other than that I agree whole heartedly. Faith precedes the decision to follow Christ and lack of faith precedes the decision to not follow Christ.

When faith comes, that is when we are empowered to choose Christ. We can never follow through in a choice to follow Christ without faith.

We are in agreement Brother.